Where is Holyfield on your ATG Heavyweight list?

6th behind ali louis holmes foreman and prime tyson .

 

Resume don't mean sh1t if you still got your ass beat - Bowe beat Holy - end of - Bowe was better - he proved it in the ring for gods sake - how can you possibly argue about that - OK some thought has to be put in for the guys who didn't fight each other but Bowe and Holy did fight and Bowe won twice in 3 so Bowe is better - simple?? PS if not for the fan man interuption could BOwe (who was getting into his kind of rythm right at that point) have started to come on? Did that interuption set him back again? Could Bowe have won all 3?

 

Yes people say Evander was coming on before fan man, but thats not the case. It was Bowe who was turning the fight in his favor. That being said, Holyfield resume is still far deeper than Bowes, you cant rank him lower than Bowe.

 

Yeah but he also has lost to Bowe twice, Lennox Lewis twice (admittedly when he was past his best days), Michael Moorer once, John Ruiz, Byrd, Toney, Donald (!!!), and Ibragimov when real anchient so I'll let him off on that one - love the young Holyfield to bits but being realistic about him - he is not in the elite range for me

my top you'll think is laughable to be honest - but I think all the guys in the top 20 are great fighters - it's just the further in time we go the more fighters you have to try and squeeze in and you can't shoe horn 25 people into the top 10 can you

 

I still would like the dozen or so you put above Holy

 

Its not that simple though. Iran Barkley beat Thomas Hearns a perfect 2 for 2. Does this mean that we should automatically rate Barkley higher, or should we take the time to consider other things like the fact that Hearns has wins over Duran, Cuevas, Benitez, Hill and numerous others, along with the claim of winning belts in several weight classes. How about Douglas beating Tyson? Does that mean Buster gets rated higher than Mike?

I rate Holyfield higher than Bowe, because he was the division's only 5 time champ and defeated a much larger portion of the era's best heavy weights such as:

- James Douglas
- Riddick Bowe
- Mike Tyson
- Michael Moorer
- John Ruiz
- George Foreman
- Michael Dokes ( better than the version Bowe beat )
- Hasim Rahman
- Ray Mercer

Riddick Bowe had a very good looking pro record, but when it comes down to it, he only held the title once and for a very short period. His best wins include.

- Evander Holyfield
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Bruce Seldon
- Tony Tubbs
- Herbie Hide
- Andrew Golata ( not seen by most as a true victory )
- Pierre Coetzer
- Larry Donald.
- Michael Dokes ( shot )
As you can see, Holy's list and acheivements trump Bowe's by far.

The fan man incident was just as much of an interruption for Evander as it was for Riddick. Bowe was the reigning champ and had 5 years of youth on Holyfield. If anything, he should have been able to capitalize on that rest period better than Evander did, but couldn't. Furthermore, I will ad that Holyfield was kicking Bowe's ass in their third match, but due to his recent illness with hepatitis B, tired in the mid rounds, making it possible for Bowe to score a stoppage. Now, are you going to make the same " what if " statement in Holy's defense, or do they only apply to Bowe?

 

Apparently they do only apply to Bowe - if you note when comparing other fighters to Bowe, Bowes skillset and abilities are taken from one fight and the compared boxer has bad moments cherry picked from a career spanning sometimes over a 10 years period to discredit him.
Most boxers have to prove their adaptability against different types of fighters over a period of years.........Not Bowe, he's just referenced from 1 fight against someone he had every physical advantage over, who beat him in the rematch anyway proving his opponent could adapt and not him.
All other fighters wen beaten are 'found out' not bowe tho, if Bowe loses its because he is shot - David Haye must be using Bowe as a template for his career.

 

I place him at number 9.

 

For the record, I don't have a problem with Riddick Bowe's resume or even with him in general. But, I don't understand the logic that just because one fighter got the better of another, that it automatically means that he rates higher. As mentioned before, Holy beat a much larger list of the era's best fighters, was a multiple time champion, and win or lose, fought EVERYONE, whereas Bowe ducked his greatest challenge. I agree with what you're saying though. On this forum, as well as a few others that I have visited, you have people who go through hell and high water to make excuses for one man, while denying the very same concessions for another... I try to avoid doing that myself as a I realize that its easy to fall into the bias trap of being partial to one man over another.

 

Bowe vs. Holyfield I- Holyfield was 30 years old and wanted to fight Tyson. He was hardly motivated for Bowe who he had beat the **** out of in sparring sessions and thought very little of. He underestimated Bowe and paid for it. The fight was still close and Bowe did get away with countless lowblows without losing a point. Also, the knockdown was questionable... Bowe hit him in the back of the head. It was a once in a lifetime performance for Bowe, he had no room for improvement. Holyfield definately could have fought better.

Holyfield vs. Bowe II- Holyfield fought much better and clearly won. He may have even stopped Bowe had "Fan Man" not showed up. Bowe was a little heavy but he was still very good.

Bowe vs. Holyfield III- The 33 year old Holyfield fought well at times but was clearly ill. He dropped Bowe in the 6th with more than 90 seconds left in the round. Holyfield should have had him out but was uncharacteristically spent at this point. He couldn't finish Bowe who was all but out when he got up off the canvas. Bowe went on to stop Holyfield in the 8th.

Sure, Bowe won 2 out of 3 but Holyfield is still better. Had they fought a 4th or 5th time Holyfield may have scored one or two KOs over Bowe... would it have meant anything? Maybe, maybe not?

Do you rank Max Schmeling over Louis? Or even close to Louis? Do you rank Tommy Loughran above Max Baer at HW? Do you rank Jimmy Young above Foreman?

 

1 Ali
2 Louis
3 Lewis/Foreman

5 Marciano/Holmes

7 Liston
8 Tyson
9 Frazier
10 Patterson

Holyfield in the 10-12 range.

 

This. Same way Vernon Forrest is not better than Shane Mosley and Ricardo Mayorga is not better than Vernon Forrest in a resume sense.

Bowe's resume is weak. His first win over Evander is amazing, but his third remains one of the weakest wins in top heavyweight history given that Holyfield had hepatitis, and it is documented. He just wasn't fighting Evander that night, and still got dropped.

No, H2H is not the only way to rate a fighter. Doesn't matter how good you were: If the other guy proved how good he was against better people than you did, you probably can't claim to have accomplished more. Talent aint worth **** if it aint used, and Bowe has one top, high level win on his whole resume.

 

i have evander at number 8 behind lewis, johnson, holmes, dempsey, marciano and joe louis. he is rightly above foreman and Tyson.

 

The Hearns-Barkley comparison is about as poor an example as is possible to find - Hearns was clearly way past his best days - my point is IMO Evander never fought a greater fight (or fighter at heavyweight) - Evander was at his best - he would never be as good again - and obviously the same is true for Bowe - don't bring in comparisons with fights like Hearns-Barkley because that strains credibility

 

You don't understand the logic that because one fighter got the better of another that it automatically means that he rates higher????? atsch Well the of boxing is to win right - and the act of winning makes you better than the man you beat right - all things being equal - when you're both on your best day and Bowe beats you that makes Bowe on his best day better than you on your best day doesn;t it???? Is that not the very essence of logic??? Do you know how ridiculous you sounded

:|"just because he beat him doesn't mean he was better!!":|

Oh OK then Holyfield losing to Bowe makes him better than Bowe does it???