Where would you rank Cotto among the great Puerto Ricans?

Is Camacho really rated that highly by people? I always thought of him as a very talented but underwhelming fighter. Everything he did from lightweight up was quite average. A very good but not automatically great fighter. He might scrape the Puerto Rican top 10 but he's not automatically better than someone like Cotto.

 

I think Camacho above Ortiz is worse.

 

A Puerto Rican fighter that has not been mentioned and should be is Jose Basora. The man beat Jake LaMotta, Fritzie Zivic, Holman Williams and drew with Sugar Ray Robinson. Hate to see him forgotten when mentioning great fighters from the isle.

 

Cotto's legacy is more muddled when you dig through his record. Many of his signature wins are not as glittering as they might seem.

1) Zab Judah - The two early low blows Cotto nailed Judah with would make Andre Ward blush. They clearly affected Judah.

2) Yuri Foreman - Yuri had one leg in this fight. This would not be the last time Cotto won a belt against a one legged opponent.

3) Margarito 2 - Margarito's damaged eye from the Pacquiao fight almost derailed this fight as he was initially denied permission to fight in NY. The eye was reinjured in the 4th round and the fight stopped in the 10th by the doctor.

4) Martinez - Another defending champion fighting on one leg in MSG.


Ironically, Cotto's some of his losses impressed me more.

1) Margarito 1 - A great effort against a prime Antonio "The Brick" Margarito, who was terrifying the welterweight division 10 years ago with his Lamotta chin and phenomenal work rate. Unfortunately Cotto left a piece of himself in the ring that night.

2) Mayweather - An underrated performance. Cotto was inspired this night, and roughed up Mayweather in a way only Castillo and Maidana would surpass. You can see in the mid rounds Mayweather' s surprise at Cotto's effective jab several times.

3) Alvarez - A very competitive bout I had even until the 12th round. Not quite a Golden Boy decision like Lara and GGG as Alvarez earned the decision, but the cards were too wide.

All in all though, a top 10 Puerto Rican boxer who fought with dignity and professionalism. One of my favorite boxers of the last decade, saw him at MSG against Margarito and Martinez. I wish him the best.

 

Agreed he took a terrible beating and even bled from his ears....you cannot take a beating like that without consequences IMO it was that fight that took away what he needed for Paq.....fights like these shorten careers or at least degrades them....getting sparked is better than prolonged damage look at Marciano's opponents

On the original topic he was top tier but not the best....good enough to compete with anyone on even ground....Gomez was the best

 

I'm sorry but I don't think Camacho deserves to be in the same sentence as Ortiz, let alone two places apart in a top 10 list. Camacho might make it into the top 10 in some people's lists but Ortiz should be an automatic choice in any Puerto Rican top 4. Ortiz was an all-time great lightweight champion; Camacho had two relatively undistinguished title reigns at 130 and 135 pounds. Ortiz beat Ismael Laguna, Flash Elorde, Sugar Ramos and Dulio Loi. Camacho lost against any great fighters he faced (in their primes) and some less than great ones too. Camacho had great talent, but Ortiz had great achievements.

 

Inside fifteen to be sure, whether ten probably will vary by person. I'd venture if a bunch of scholars of the game, like a scientifically significant sample size, say a few hundred, all submitted lists we'd see him averaged at about the dozenth mark.


Top five, you're biased in his favor wearing rose lenses. 16 or lower and you're just irrationally spiteful towards him.

 

Surprised to see a few mentions for Iván Calderón but all rating him lower than Junito.

For me, they're extremely close. Both are just behind Tito as the greatest trio from PR in the "modern era" if we define that as, say, debuting since 1990.

Very like circumstances in their career pitfalls too. (Segura was basically Margarito writ teeny)

Iron Boy had a thoroughly fantastic run (longevity & reasonable quality, with consistent form; was never beaten in his prime, or even close to it) that went largely unnoticed in his day, and since. Par for the course for nearly all the greats in the straw/fly range.

 

BoxRec don't see it that way, apparently. They have Calderón as low as nineteenth all-time, and 4th to debut since '90. Ahead of him they put Eric Morel of all people (#17 all-time per BR).

That is baffling. Other than one extraordinary scalp - that of Gerry Peñalosa, admittedly leagues better than any single win of Calderón's, except Morel defeated him via robbery SD - he was a very ordinary titlist.

 

Purely in terms of actual quality - the 130-135 Camacho was a better fighter than Cotto ever was.

 

Cotto was a very good fighter, Ortiz was a great one ,there is clear distance between them.

 

Better than DeJesus, nah...

 

Add the likes of Cocoa Kid, Sixto Escobar, Rosario, Vasquez, Basora etc and I think that top ten is a potentially tough ask depending on how you look at things (though admittedly I haven't made detailed comparisons to some of these guys achievements).

I always liked Cotto from his early days even though he was ridiculously overrated and hyped up with the type of backing and support that would make some of the other lads in this discussion sick with envy.

Good steady pressuring footwork and ability to cut off the ring aligned to a respectable offensive arsenal - nice array of textbook punches thrown with good timing, technique and respectable power, especially the left hook ( to head and body both). Turned that shot over really nicely with good pivot and torque. Could box and move a bit too when he wanted/needed to.

That said, mediocre punch resistance and stamina on top of poorish defensive reflexes/technical ability and a lack of composure under heavy fire really worked against him imo. Just not the type of weaknesses you can afford to have against better opponents when applying pressure is your game. That said, he partially compensated by being brave as feck with plenty of fighting spirit and proving he could come back from serious hearings.

He wasn't the man either at 140, 147 etc. Just a good splinter titleiist in a **** poor era, which would have likely made him a contender rather than champions in previous times. Still, did very well to knock off decrepit Martinez in such clear fashion, though Martinez himself was overrated imo, and make himself the man at 160 for a brief time.

In a deeper welter era, I think he'd be more of a good secondary contender than a serious threat to most genuinely excellent/great fighters. Good enough to probably earn a decent ranking and title shot in several eras, especially if more surrounded by competition in the boxer-mover type mould rather than pressure fighters or offensively talented, hard-hurting boxer punchers, in which case I see him struggling. Not a fifteen round fighter either for sure. He'd probably notch up impressive wins mixed in with decisive losses against stylistic foils. Put him in the seventies for example and I could maybe see him giving someone like Hedgemon Lewis real trouble but being ground down and eventually run over by someone like Palomino, who was a better version of Margarito.

Good/very good fighter at his best but nothing special. I hated seeing Pac and the cheat beat him down and thought he gave Mayweather a fine run for his money despite being somewhat faded.

 

Nice to see Herbert Hardwicke mentioned!