Where would you rate Ali if every close fight had gone against him?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    If the judges had consistently decided against Ali throughout his career in fights that were debatable and close -- e.g., Norton, Young -- where would you rank him?
     
  2. Bumnard_Hopkins

    Bumnard_Hopkins Active Member Full Member

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    Fans consider Ali "past it" in those fights. Most people already acknowledge the Norton robbery.
    I think Ali's out of the ring attributes would still keep him in place.
     
  3. Marcus_Italicus

    Marcus_Italicus New Member Full Member

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    Ali admitted he lost his third fight with Norton. It is evident: the judges were the only ones in the arena not to see Norton win.
    But Young also won. The number of punches brought to the target proves it. Young landed 222 punches to Ali's 113.
    These two are Ali's defeats, sure.
    But Norton II and Shavers may also have been defeated for Ali. Ali landed more punches, yes, but Norton and Shavers did more damage, much more. Especially Shaver ruined Ali's physique. Is the number of hits or their effectiveness more important?
     
  4. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    One caveat to that.

    There were those who argued that Frazier deserved the decision in the second fight.

    Now that might be a gamechanger.
     
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  5. Dempsey1238

    Dempsey1238 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Dong Jones becomes the first person to beat Ali.
     
  6. BCS8

    BCS8 Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    You could add Cooper to that and the incident of the ripped glove.

    Suffice to say he'd still be top ten but that Joe Louis would probably be a fairly clear #1.

    People often forget how close the very best fighters actually are. A decision here, a few seconds there, and we have new champions and a different history.
     
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  7. swagdelfadeel

    swagdelfadeel Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    So Young and Norton (in the third fight) landing more punches on Ali is proof they beat him but Ali landing more punches on Norton (2nd fight) and Shavers doesn't ensure Ali's victory in those fights? Forgive me for thinking you have an agenda here. ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
  8. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    He still decisively beat Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton. Still #1 ATG.
     
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  9. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    Norton?
     
  10. Rakesh

    Rakesh Member Full Member

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    I personally don't see the controversey in the 2nd fight, Ali looked like the champ in there that night with jabbing and moving all night. Especially that 15th round really ended a Norton win, maybe if you were really biased against Ali you could make it a draw? Anyway I agree with the other disputes on the 3rd fight.
     
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  11. Rakesh

    Rakesh Member Full Member

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    12th*
     
  12. cross_trainer

    cross_trainer Bergeron Avatar Club Full Member

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    That's fair. I might be interpreting "decisively" more strictly than the poster I quoted.
     
  13. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You must mean the 3rd fight, though I disagree and feel Norton took that fight by three points.

    The 2nd fight is one of the only where Ali showed flashes of his old brilliance. I used to mostly agree with George Foreman, that Ali never really won any of his fights against Norton, but rewatching that 2nd fight a couple of more times convinced me otherwise. Ali fought his ass off that night, was at times strikingly great, and on my card, though it was a close fight, won convincingly.
     
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  14. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Sorry, I see you corrected yourself, my friend.
     
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  15. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Same way I’d rate Holmes if the Williams and Witherspoon fights had gone against him , Or Louis in the first walcott fight, Or Marciano in his controversial matches with Lastarza and Lowry.