Where would you rate Ali if every close fight had gone against him?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by cross_trainer, Sep 13, 2021.

  1. Fogger

    Fogger Member Full Member

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    I think the only way you can answer this question is you do reverse the close wins of Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Johnso, Frazier, Holmes and other top heavyweight champions. It is unfair to negate the wins of just one fighter.
     
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  2. Marcus_Italicus

    Marcus_Italicus New Member Full Member

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    Oct 13, 2019
    I try to explain myself.
    Young and Norton (III) won the matches by the number of hits and their effectiveness. Young also wounded Ali, Norton (III) also won by admission of Ali himself.
    Norton (II), Shavers, probably also Chuvalo, lost by number of hits. But they won for the effectiveness of the punches. Ali was injured all three times, badly with Shavers. Ali's doctor suggested that he withdraw after the fight.

    Young and Norton (III) are definitely Ali's defeats, whatever criteria you use.

    Chuvalo, Norton (II), Shavers, they can be wins or losses, depending on the criterion you use. :)
     
  3. heerko koois

    heerko koois Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  4. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I have never heard that argued, why not start a thread about it?
    If you do, part of it should include a consideration about how Ali got away with so much holding & pulling behind the neck.
    When a referre permits too much of what is technically illegal, but the rule breaker does better under those circumstances, how can you give the fight to the guy who was essentially cheated?

    I think you have to blame the official.
    It is only because Ali was repeatedly warned early in Manilla that we got a great fight.
    But are you suggesting that even with all the pulling & tying Frazier up, a decent case can be made that Frazier eserved the decision?
    That would be competely new to me.
     
  5. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    How would that be? Would you change your opinions, or not because it matters to you who *should* have won, which you already considered?

    And I never heard that Marciano did not easily deserve the win against Lastarza in the rematch.
     
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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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  7. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You may be right about most of those fights. Except Chuvalo? You do not say which fight, but you must mean their second bout, because the first was so lopsided. But how can you have found that one very close?
     
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  8. Marcus_Italicus

    Marcus_Italicus New Member Full Member

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    You're right, let me explain better. I'm sure Ali won against Chuvalo, both matches.
    I'm not sure if he won against Norton (II) and I think he lost with Shavers, because in the end Ali was really tired and injured, very injured and in many parts of the body. The judges could not see and understand him (Ali's doctor understood that well, after the fight) and gave the victory to Ali.
    I meant that, with Chuvalo, Ali was punched in the kidneys, so he went to the hospital. From this point of view (only from this point of view), Chuvalo was better. Then, it is certain that Ali dominated and won both fights with this good boxer.
     
  9. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yes “ in the rematch “ which resulted in a KO. While I’ve never heard of any footage available for the first fight, there were reports that some felt rocky might have lost. If he had in actuality that would have changed his resume drastically given that his top achievement was the 49-0 record
     
  10. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    OK thanks for explaining.
    I do not know if Ali deserved the victory against Shavers.
    But if a fighter does better in terms of shots landed, ring generalship, damage caused...I do not know if unseen damage only detectable later should be a deciding factor.
    Here is an engaging, well written story about the fight & Ali's psychology & tricks.
    This content is protected
     
  11. janitor

    janitor Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    There were papers that called it for Frazier.

    It might have been a minority opinion, but they are out there, for whatever it is worth.
     
  12. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I would like to hear the arguments that anyone made for him winning.
    And if the logic involved compensating him for the cheating that the referee allowed.
    I do not see how this opinion could be sensible.
    However I also do not know IF Ali would have won if he had to follow all the rules.
    Although Frazier also got that unearned break in the second round...
     
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  13. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Afraid of Baboons... Full Member

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    Well then let’s say these all go against him.

    Cooper
    Young
    Frazier 2
    The Norton trilogy
    Shavers
    Young

    And probably some others I might be forgetting. A lot of it is past prime stuff or early career fights. What really changes history is Frazier 2.

    Also with 10 losses now not as many casuals would have his quotes written as FB status’s lol.
     
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  14. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Afraid of Baboons... Full Member

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    Who has Chuvalo beating Muhammad?
     
  15. Kamikaze

    Kamikaze Afraid of Baboons... Full Member

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    You know I have always maintained that Ali could have finished Frazier that night if not for clumsy intervention but I’m glad he didn’t because how many people would’ve called it a fluke?