Which do you rate higher. Ali's title reign 64 to 67 or tyson s 86 to 90?

Fair enough.
Like I said at first, it's close.

 

To add a little more to Sangria’s excellent analysis, I looked up the Ring magazine ratings for each fighter’s opponents from the issue just prior to each fight.

In Ali’s nine defenses, three of his challengers were ranked #1. Seven were ranked in the top five. Only one was unranked.

In Tyson’s nine defenses, four were ranked in the top five; I count Spinks as top 5. Three were unranked by Ring.

Ring recognized Michael Spinks as champion; Tyson was their #1 contender from December 86 until he beat Spinks, a situation which undoubtably affected the rankings.

Interestingly, both were co-champions for much of their reigns, though Tyson’s time at the top was much more muddied by boxing politics than was Ali’s.

Ali 60's

5/25/65 1: Liston 35-2-0
11/22/65 1: Patterson 43-4-0
3/29/66 9: Chuvalo 34-11-2
5/21/66 4: Cooper 33-11-1
8/6/66 unranked: London 34-14-0
9/10/66 3: Mildenberger 49-2-3
11/14/66 3: Williams 65-5-1
2/6/67 1: Terrell 39-4-0
3/22/67 2: Folley 74-7-4

Tyson 80's

3/7/87 2: Smith 19-5-0
5/30/87 2: Thomas 29-1-1
8/1/87 7: Tucker 34-0-0
10/18/87 6: Biggs 15-0-0
1/22/88 unranked: Holmes 48-2-0
3/21/88 unranked: Tubbs 24-1-0
6/27/88 champion: Spinks 31-0-0
2/25/89 unranked: Bruno 32-2-0
7/21/89 2: Williams 22-2-0

 

Liston was the undisputed worlds hwt champion when Ali beat him. The only comparable fighter Tyson beat was Spinks. Knocking out Sonny Liston is worth far more than beating Spinks. Ali did so TWICE.

Ali is rated the greatest hwt champion for a reason. Tyson is typically not rated anywhere close to Ali for a reason.

 

Two words, Sonny Liston..... that trumps anything Tyson did during his reign.

 

Stick to your stats pal, remember the stats tell you Tyson's count against Douglas was longer than 10 seconds..... lol

 

You KNOW nothing if you believe the one dimensional Tyson was better than the GOAT.

 

Ali feasted on the huge, slower fighters. You honestly believe the likes of Smith, Tucker, Biggs would have troubled Ali........ hahahahaha.

 

This thread is rating Tyson's cleaning out of the division prior to losing vs Ali's initial pre exile reign. Blind Freddy knows Ali is rated miles above Tyson overall. This snipping makes it much closer.

 

No one with any credibility really thinks Tyson was a better fighter than Ali. Those comments are best ignored. I'd expect stuff like that on youtube comments, not in a proper discussion.

Sangria's not wrong in scrutinizing the level of Ali's 1964-67 opponents though. I'd say if it wasn't for Sonny Liston, Tyson's crop would trump Ali's.
I don't put much stock in the "undefeated" status of some of Tyson's opponents though. Tyrell Biggs for example had struggled to stay unbeaten in 15 pro fights, almost came unstuck against a faded David Bey. Then Tony Tucker, perhaps Tyson's best opponent, unbeaten in 35 fights but only one or two of them were any good. Spinks unbeaten but only 4 fights at heavyweight, one a disputed decision. Most of these guys were better protected than most fighters in the 1960s. Berbick was a more PROVEN fighter than any of those undefeateds, and he'd lost 4 times already. Smith had mixed with good opposition and his record was 19-5 I think. Bruno had an impressive statistical record but he'd already been KO'd the two times he stepped in the ring with a live body, and his best wins were fat versions of Coetzee and Bugner. So the stats alone aren't much to go on.

I think Brian London was worse than anyone Tyson faced in the era in question. Champion Sonny Liston was alot better than anyone Tyson faced. And the rest is debatable.
I doubt any of Tyson's crop were better than Ernie Terrell, let's put in that way.

I suppose the condition of Liston in 1964 and the questions surrounding the legitimacy of the fight could put Tyson ahead, but we'd really have to disqualify the result completely to come to such a conclusion.

 

I rate Ali's reign in the 60s better; it certainly ended better than Tyson's.

If one guy's reign ends with an utter thrashing at the hands of a 42-1 underdog, how can it be classed as better than an undefeated reign which was ended in the courts when the Champion was CLEARLY head and shoulders above the rest of the field when he was stripped?

I expect Tyson fans will ALWAYS have an excuse though.

I would like to add that neither Ali or Tyson feature high on my list of favourite fighters - I just thought I'd get that out there before I'm accused of pro-Ali bias.

 

and with the first sentence of your post, you have lost my respect (regarding this thread). You KNOW Tyson is the better fighter?? Really? I mean we all have opinions but to claim you KNOW is just, well, ludicrous.

 

SHould I not know? Am I supposed to half know or not know? Tyson in his prime was the better fighter. Nothing new under the sun. I could care less if you lost respect since I never respected you to begin with.

 

I think rating their reigns in the specified period comes down to how you rate the second Liston fight. If you count it as a clean knockout of a still great fighter, it weighs heavily. If you regard it as a dive, it's a complete write off. What I saw was a legitimate knockdown followed by Liston beating the given count and countinuing fighting. The officiating was spectacularly bad and Ali should've been penalized for interfering with the count if not DQ'd.

Ironically, Tyson would posses a knockout win over Douglas if the officiating were held to the same standard as the Liston fight since the refs count was off compared to the officiall time.

 

Tyson was the better fighter except he got sparked out by a fat journeyman in the prime of his life, oh wait......

 

Both great questions. The 2nd bout with Liston is incredibly controversial to this day. What are we to make of it unless some official information is exposed. I guess it comes down to personal interpretation, and to me it looks exactly how you described it.

With Douglas it's a bit different. I was never one to say Tyson got cheated with a long count. Most everything leading up to the fight was in his favor: Douglas being a warm up for Holyfield, Don King being the promoter, Tyson being the undefeated and undisputed champion, Tyson also being the 42-1 favorite. No excuses but he did slack off in training and had done so since firing Rooney. I do believe the referee was incompetent by not wiping off Buster's gloves nor did he really check to see if Buster wanted to continue. To me it looked like Buster wasn't too keen on continuing. He got up at 9 and 1/2 with a disheveled look in his eyes. And then the bell rang to save him from sampling a response from Tyson.

Douglas beat Tyson fair in square. But did Ali beat Liston fair and square? I think so but I'm not sure. Still, the Liston win doesn't put Ali's competition over Tyson's. It was one fight broiled in controversy. Tyson's competition was better than Ali's, and I don't think it's that close.