Which fighters from boxing history would have beat Floyd Mayweather Jr?

Leonard would have had trouble with the Montreal Duran even if he employed the same tactics he did in the rematch. Why your using the third fight as a gauge here is anyones guess. The Leonard from the rematch was better than in their third fight, all of nine years later. He was also fighting Duran at the weight in question, welterweight.

One thing thats obvious. The Duran who was fought against Leonard in Montreal would give the the slick moving Leonard more trouble than he did five months later when he surrendered during the 8th round.

It's well documented that Duran partied, hung out with friends, and generally enjoyed his Montreal victory to the full in the months that followed the fight. If Duran stayed in the gym instead of letting himself 'go' and kept his body in shape I can say without question that he'd have been more competitve than he was for the rematch. Yes, the scores were closer than expected for the seven completed rounds, but that was mainly based on Leonard's attacks being few and far between rather than Duran taking a grip of those rounds convincingly. Leonard 'allowed' Duran into the fight for short periods, although the attacks coming his way were not alarming. Unlike five months earlier when Leonard was getting smacked around and deeply involved trench warfare.

 

I can't recall saying I don't appreciate Roberto Duran. I'm a fan. I acknowledge that as lightweight, he was a better fighter than he ever was at Welterweight.

I had Duran vs Leonard I very close on the scorecards. I didn't have a scorecard for their second bout because it wasn't competitive. Leonard knew what he had to do. Box on the outside and Duran would have nowhere to go.

Terrific performance by Duran, terrible gameplan by Leonard.

 

And of course this holds more weight than assuming Duran couldn't deal with movers?

All I know is, Benitez thoroughly outboxed Duran when he refused to get in trench warfare, as did Leonard in the two return bouts. I make my assumption that he cannot deal with movers, and i suppose all of the Leonard haters and Duran fans can just assume Duran partied the night before.

 

Who said Duran would win? Certainly not me. I did say that Duran would give Leonard a lot more to think about had he came into the fight in shape and energized like he was for the Montreal fight five months earlier. If you go back and read, then digest, you'll see that my whole post was geared towards Duran giving a better performance, not winning.

You said that Duran wasn't the same outwith his natural weight; lightweight. Which is wrong. I did say previously that apart from 'no mas' he was an extremely good welterweight. Infact, many people consider him to be around his prime for the first Leonard fight. I'd take him to beat Trinidad, De La Hoya, Curry, etc and the other welterweights after himself and Leonard squared off during the early 80's.

It's not about assuming. It's about dealing with the evidence. It was well reported in the media back in Panama that the biggest victory of Duran's career 'Montreal' got to Duran's head. Even outwith the Leonard fight he was well known for getting out of shape between fights. if you look at Duran physically in the two fights, you'll notice that he was softer around the chest for the return fight. Not as sculptured and cut.

 

Exactly. Let's review the evidence.

Angelo Dundee: "Well there you go. Duran psychologically psyched my guy out by abusing him in front of his wife. Ray and I were walking down the street in Montreal, Canada and Duran walked up to Leonard wife saying: “I am going to get him. And when I am through with him, I am going to get you.” Ray wanted to beat him up right then and there but I said “Hey if you hit him here we ain’t going to get paid.” So the mental part of the fight pretty much started right there. We were very well prepared for the first Duran fight. You see, I had an insider on Duran that people didn’t realize. He used to train in my gym. There was a little lightweight there named Doug Vailoant. Vailoant used to lick Duran everyday in the gym by out boxing him. Vailoant wasn’t a superior boxer than Leonard. So all Ray had to do was outbox him in that first fight. Duran was completely baffled in the second fight. I prepared Leonard to box him that way. We used the same plan in both fights. Another thing about the first fight was that we were in Montreal, Canada. I learned a great lesson that Canadians love tough guys. There is a great history of them in Canada; Durrell, and Johnny Greco, all of those tough guys up there. Duran was a tough guy and every fan in that arena was rooting for him. It was amazing how the entire crowd turned on Ray because he is such a good kid. You know, you learn something new everyday of your life."

I'm not saying this is all true, but I then ask myself, why would Angelo Dundee feel the need to lie?

Duran was beaten by a pure boxer in Benitez, who countered him all night long. Leonard beat him fairly easily in return bout. I'm of the opinion had Leonard not vouched to slug with Duran in their first bout, he would have won. That's my opinion based on evidence.

 

Benitez stood in front of Duran.He didn't use much lateral movement at all.

Duran was beaten by speed and reflexes in that fight.He just didn't have the legs to get in on Benitez, nor the reflexes to avoid his quick single shots.

He wouldn't have been able to do that to a younger Duran to anywhere near the same extent.

 

He was outboxed. :good

 

Yes, but that has little bearing on how a prime Duran does at a weight suited very well to him against a fighter he holds a considerable style advantage on.

 

I think people use more excuses to justify Duran losses then probably any other fighter in the history of the sport.

 

No, he was inconsistent in the latter half of his career due to motivation issues by that stage. Watch a prime Duran, he was so good you didn't hear of any of these issues until he started to get lazy and baloon up in between fights.

He was past his prime, it's an excuse that will always be used for every fighter at times, and it definitely applies with someone as erratic post prime as Duran was.

 

So you honestly don't see Armstrong having any more success than a low level fighter like Baldomir?

 

Dundee was right regarding the strategy involved and how it turned the tables for Leonard. But do you think he's going to say that Duran was also out of shape and never looked quite the same fighter as he did five months earlier? Nope. Because that simply would tarnish his fighters win somewhat huh. Much of Dundee's take on Leonard's win for the rematch centres around mind games and where the the first fight took place. All part and parcel of boxing of course. But he doesn't quite go in depth on Duran's performances over the course of both fights, and rightly so. He's putting as much shine on Leonard winning as he possibly can do. Again, thats his duty.

If you were to read into Duran's side of the story from his people you'd obviously get everything centred on why he was so different from his victory in Montreal to the 'no mas' surrender. As I have said, outwith Leonard's superb change in strategy, Duran wasn't quite at the races. He IMO fought like a man who was either, weight drained, possible stomach cramps as claimed? or unmotivated due to already beating Leonard. IMO unmotivated seems unlikely, but Duran sure was a strange 'up and down' character so you never know.

Thats one I'd need to think long and hard about. Although my initial thinking does favour Leonard, just.

 

He would fare better than the mediocre Argentinian by at least succeeding in taking a few rounds from Mayweather, but thats about as good as its going to get for Henry.

 

Coincidentially, we didn't hear any excuses until he started losing fights. Look, I'm not a hater of any fighter, certainly not one of the greatest lightweights that ever lived. Unlike most here, I am a big fan of Leonard however, and nobody ever seems to even mention just how close their first fight was. It wasn't a landslide. If Ray had boxed more, why would it be so outlandish to assume he could have got the win? This isn't discrediting Duran's victory, it wasn an all time great win beating the 2nd greatest welterweight ever above his natural weight.

BUT! I do think Leonard could have won if he had boxed more.

 

I take it you don't think as highly of Armstrong as a head to head fighter as you do in terms of accomplishments.