Which fighters would Chavez do better against than Duran would?

I wouldn't say i don't think there are any fighters i can't see Chavez doing better against.

I can't say any really spring to mind as far as definites regarding excellent\great opponent's, but i'm not saying i'd be shocked if we could see them both fighting some of these guys and he did do a bit better.

I think he would be more consistent against fighters like Viruet, Fernandez etc He doesn't got as "flat" as Duran can when presented with cautious or lower-output mobile fighters.

 

On the point lora made I absolutely agree.

Duran had major problems with movers with low punch outputs.
The Leonard rematch is a prime example.

I wish I could elaborate more.
If anyone can give me links or call out youtube rounds in which to watch a lightweight Duran chasing and effectively pouncing on the types of movers Chavez handled so simply and effectively.
Hector Camacho and Lonnie Smith strikes me as fighters that would have taken Duran to the brink and maybe even beat him, and yet Chavez handled them with such ease and effectiveness by cutting off the ring, working the body, and applying constant pressure.


Duran may have been a quicker more sudden striker, but it stops there as far as abilities to cut a ring off. Chavez imo is so much more refined and fluid in the way he manuevers and keeps constant pressure while cutting the ring off.
I think that Chavez much better ability to parry shots helped him cut the ring off better than Duran.

When you're moving foward full tilt moving your legs in rhythm and closing the angles of escape, it helps tremendously to have the ability to parry incoming shots from a faster handed opponent, and counter off of parrying.
Duran could do some of it, but not nearly at the high level Chavez could, and I think that helps Chavez to be more effective against fighters set on lateralling and running the ring.



On Leonard? Duran is naturally bigger than Chavez, so at 147 lbs Duran acclamates himself to that weight better.

P4P however, imo Chavez chops down and beats Leonard in better fashion than Duran did in Montreal.
The Duran in Montreal was fatigued in the late rounds, this does'nt happen to Chavez where he would have thrived deep into the fight against Leonard and possibly stopped him.
I'm talking p4p clowns, and I have to say that because previously when I talk about this, guys jump on me saying Chavez could'nt deal with Leonards strenghth and speed at 147 lbs.

Both fit and ready prime for prime and P4P, I pick Chavez over Leonard and by stoppage!!!!

No way in hell does Chavez gets flustered in a rematch with Leonard when all Leonard wants to do is lateral the ring and stall the fight.
Chavez in that instance cuts the ring off where he's much better at doing that than Duran!:deal

I could just imagine Duran stopping center ring and crying to the ref against Pernell Whitaker to make him fight!

Against movers and shakers, Chavez much better than Duran against!

 

Hearns...Peroid

 

I had to stop reading that when you said Lonnie Smith may well have beaten Duran.

A man with any integrity whatsoever would never return to this forum after that.

 

I know right:good

 

I did'nt say Smith would beat Duran, but I do see him giving Duran some problems.
A prime Camacho I'd favor to beat Duran, not so with Chavez!

Now stop whining and get with the program.
Lets not act like Duran was some God that a fighter the caliber of Lonnie Smith could'nt compete with. Duran did lose to lesser known fighters like Laing and Simms and neither is known for being slippery.
Give me fights of Duran where he's effectively cutting off the ring against really slippery boxers like Camacho and even Smith???

Somebody ****ing convince me Duran can effectively deal and handle slippery fighters to the level Chavez can, thats all I'm damn saying.
If you cant answer that, yeah, ****ing bail out of here and pretend its not worth the time responding to someone who stuck the name out of a lesser fighter who may have given Duran problems! nutnut

 

Chavez dealt with movers, Camacho, Smith, Taylor I'd say was boxing in circles never giving his backs to the ropes, Chavez dealt with him propinating a severe beatdown and several day stay at the hospital.

Pernell also ran, but he's a different breed of cat that likes to stall fights with other defensive tactics.

All I'm asking is for classic posters to name fights Duran does a fantastic job of cutting the ring off on a mover.
I'm not an expert on Duran's lightweight title reign and would like to see some fights where Duran deals with a slickster, nevermind a defensive nightmare like Whitaker.

 

And therein lies the problem Vlade. (Nice to see you around mate, haven't chatted in a while).

If you want to see how a young Duran deals with some decent movers, you need to get a hold of the following fights:

Duran vs. Vilomar Fernandez - Vilomar is Lonnie Smith with the ability to actually throw punches. Duran murders him. If you need any convincing of Duran's prowess against movers, you can pretty much start here.

Duran vs. Edwin Viruet II - Viruet was actually a pretty good boxer, held his own with DeJesus and other good fighters. He assed Duran around in a non-title fight before this one, but when Duran took it seriously, it was game over. 15 round beatdown.

Duran vs. Ken Buchanan - A younger, less refined Duran, but more savage than usual that just tracks Buchanan down and belts him all across the ring.

Duran vs. Ernesto Marcel - Ernesto Marcel is a fighter I rank really, really highly. I actually think he is the best opponent that Duran beat before beating Leonard. Better than DeJesus, Buchanan, Palomino, and the others. If you need proof of his ability, watch him beat Alexis Arguello over 15 rounds (I know you rate Alexis). Both Marcel and Duran were really young in this bout and not as refined as they would become, but it was still a super, high-quality fight, which Duran manages to edge.

Duran vs. Lou Bizarro - Bizarro was a Lonnie Smith clone. Looking for survival at all costs, running around all day, offering no offensive resistance. Duran let's him run around before dropping the hammer late. Watch it more for the funny knock out than anything else. :good

 

Saying Duran can't handle movers because of his Post-Montreal career is like saying Chavez can't handle strong boxer-punchers because of his post-93 career.

I do think if it ever came down to it, Chavez had the tougher chin to crack, so potentially he would do better than Duran would against a lightweight version say of Tommy Hearns. (Of course a welterweight version of Hearns would light CHavez up....)

But Duran would probably find a way to defuse a lightweight version of Tommy before it became a question of his chin cracking so maybe even there he wouldn't do better....

Who does better say against a lightweight version of Ray Robinson?

Is there a chance he takes Duran out and a chance Chavez could withstand Ray's shots and grind out a win, Basilio style?

 

Hey Scientist! Nice to chime in every once in a while with you more educated here in the classic.

Got a question Scientist. Who of the fighters you named do you feel is the best mover, the one that stricly boxes, uses alot of lateral movement and tries to be slick?

I took a look at parts of the fights you mentioned and I think Bizarro was the one that was closest to Smith, though he's not as quick or fast as Smith.
Youtube only had highlights of the first half of the Bizarro fight, and it looked like to me Duran was having trouble tracking him. The highlights included Duran tripping a few times over Bizarro's feet and coming up complaining to the referee. It looks like he wears down Bizarro and stops him late.


Poor Vilomar Fernandez. He never had a chance. Did you see the ringsize for that fight? Jesus Christ, Don King set it up to have Duran fight Fernandez in a phone booth. Fernandez is a decent fighter, but I think he likely does better if he had more room to operate.
I think the announcing crew said they were fighting in a 14 foot ring?
Can you imagine how different Chavez-Whitaker would be with a 14 foot ring! :hey

Marcel is a good boxer, but both being so young, I dont think Marcel grasped how good Duran was going in, he slugged with Duran and never offered significant lateral movements!

Viruet also seemed like a good boxer, but just not fast or agile enough that he stands in front of Duran too much.

I can see that whenever any of the fighters offer significant movement, Duran never puts up a relentless chase, but just slowly comes foward offerering the jab until the opponent himself offers and gets close.

Not to say that Duran is that bad at cutting a ring off, but do you not think Scientist that Chavez was better at cutting off a ring and hunting down a moving fighter than Duran was???

 

Marcel knew exactly how good Duran was. They were local rivals.

Pea beat Chavez in close as well. No ring size would change that fight IMO.

If Rosario can bounce Camacho around so can Duran, but with more options going forward.

 

Hi Vlade,

Just to answer the questions highlighted above:

I think if it came down to HAVING to move, Marcel would be the most difficult to track given his defensive ability, but he had a good offensive repertoire and never did the "fighting to survive" thing that the likes of
Fernandez, Viruet and Bizarro sometimes resorted to.

The latter three are probably superior to Buchanan in foot speed and could do a good deal of circling and running, but Viruet and Fernandez would probably be the harder to track down if put into survival mode.

As for whether Chavez was better at cutting off the ring:

I think Chavez was more no-nonsense and consistent in his approach. He wouldn't suffer fools toying with him and running around the ring and giving him angles. He'd usually try to track them down immediately and just beat them down.

Duran was more 'attitudinal' for lack of a better word. If you pissed Duran off or he respected your boxing ability he would up his intensity and let all hell loose. But if he didn't respect your boxing ability and felt no threat, he'd usually allow you to do your little running dance before attacking.

If you watch the Bizarro fight, Duran is very content to just let Lou run around the ring, because he felt no threat.

Likewise if you watch the first Viruet fight and the second one, you see two different levels of intensity altogether. Duran let his guard down in the second half of the first Viruet fight and Edwin starting toying Duran around a little. Second time round Duran would have none of it and pinned him down from the first to last round.

I don't really rate Duran after the first Leonard fight. He was a totally different beast to the one that came up from lightweight. He could still fight well, as he proved, but he was more in the lethargic post-Jones James Toney mould, which just wouldn't get the job done against greats like Benitez, Hearns and co.

Not to ramble: I think Duran could cut the ring off fine, if in top form and if the mood struck him or he felt threatened by the fighter in front of him.

Chavez was more consistently good, but at best, not better than Duran at cutting the ring off.