Which fights did Tyson lose due to "fading late"or "missing heart"?

If you ask the man himself “I haven’t loved this since 1919- err 1990” Tyson is an obvious closest classic fan zealot, obvious Freudian slip.

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You have to see the openings, though, and Holy started off much more confidently in the rematch, whereas he took some time to grow into the fight the first time around.

 

Oh without question I'd have picked Tyson to destroy Holyfield in 87-89. I even thought he'd blast him out the first time they fought, but as the fight went on to me, Holyfields composure and strength , along with boxing within himself caused Tyson serious problems. He literally had no answer to engaging Evander and being backed up .

 

Was Tyson a warrior? No...warrior's don't bite in order to get DQ'd...

 

I think I’m the first fight it was a matter of testing the openings, in the second fight they knew they were there.

 

I think only the 2nd Holyfield Tyson showed mental weakness although Tyson retaliated to Holyfield's constant head butting.

 

I don’t hold Tysons last two loses against him, even if they might have been winnable he was really out of it by that point, for Williams he was hurt and McBride he retired for good so he obviously wasn’t lying that he didn’t have it in him anymore

similarly Douglas and Holyfield were “good” loses. He went out on his shield in both fights. Sonny Liston for example basically quit in his Championship defense yet it’s controversial to call him weak like Tyson.

Tysons big shames are Holyfield 2, obviously for the bite. I also though feel two factors actually make it worse for Tyson. 1 was he looked like he was in better shape then the first fight, he had trained hard and worked harder then he probably had at any point since before he had gone to prison. At 30 that sort of effort should have counted for a lot. Second he hired a world class trainer to give him a game plan for the fight and what does he do? Fight like the first fight. Never mind him getting demoralized in the third round (which I think he was winning) I think he was demoralized from the bell, possibly the only time that happened to him.

Next I want to say the Lewis fight, now I don’t fault Tyson for losing this fight, while I don’t think it was completely hopeless, Tyson was short and explosive enough to emulate Lewis conquerors, even if that possibility was quite remote by 2002. I do fault the awful condition Tyson came in at on him and an indication he wasn’t serious. Brian Nelson was another fight he came in very heavy but he really didn’t need to care to beat him. Against Lennox though? I feel it’s a-shame because while he was far from his prime the Tyson of 2000 would have at least been a live opponent (the eat you children Tyson no less). Ultimately at 35 he could have at least tried to make his cash out memorable.

 

But he did fold.

He deliberately fouled out against Holyfield in the rematch. The only ATG HW champion to get frustrated enough to get himself disqualified right after the ref sternly warned him. I don't give fighters such as Duran a pass either, his quit job against Leonard can't simply be ignored.

Tyson was a hot/cold fighter. Sometimes he really gave it his all and dug deep to try to win such as against Ruddock, Ribalta, etc. Even when losing to Douglas, he never stopped trying to win and took his beating like a man. But against Holyfield? He didn't go out on his shield and didn't leave it all in the ring. The only thing he left in the ring was a piece of his opponent's ear. He gave up against McBride too. Tyson would sometimes look for a way out when frustrated, let himself get clinched to stall, would try to break arms or elbow, etc. I factor that in h2h discussions.

 

Ali was out of the game for 3 years and he displayed tremendous heart and will to win in the 70's. Same thing with Louis, Foreman, Holmes, etc. I don't get why people always give Tyson a pass when other ATGs continued to persevere and dig deep even after recovering from layoffs, injuries, devastating losses, etc.

If prison made Tyson hot/cold when other fighters didn't crack, that points to Tyson being less mentally strong in general.

I also can't gloss over the fact Holyfield was his first truly big test against an A level elite fighter. That was his big step up and his legacy fight similar to Ali/Frazier, Mayweather/Pac, Leonard/Duran. Tyson failed, twice. It's not that hard to look good steamrolling through B and C level fighters who are inferior in several areas. Tyson was better than the vast majority of his opponents in the 80's in one or several areas: technique, defense, speed, power, etc. I can't think of a single fight where he was truly considered the underdog or that his opponent was 50/50 I'm his prime. Part of having mental fortitude and overcoming adversity is being able to win even when matched against equally skilled/tough opponents. Tyson never really did that. Other ATGs did.

Other ATGs even managed to win legacy fights, digging deep to win AFTER layoffs, injuries, etc. Tyson didn't. He lost in his big step up in class against Holyfield, literally the most important fight of his career, then quit in the rematch. That cannot be overlooked when assessing his mental fortitude in h2h ability. Because again, anyone can look great against inferior opposition. He was known for all kinds of foils when frustrated even in the 80's using elbows, arm breaking holds, low blows, etc, so even in his prime he had some bad habits indicating the possibility of him unraveling mentally were already there.

He also never got off the floor to win, even in his prime. The first time he was truly tested against Douglas and was down on the scorecards getting dropped for the first time, he failed. I can't think of any other HW ATGs other than Lewis who didn't get off the floor to win.

 

Was Tyson-Holyfield I a legacy-defining fight going into it? As I understand it, Holyfield was considered to be fading after the Bowe and Czyz performances. Boxrec lists him as a 5-1 underdog (who started out as high as 25-1), whereas Michael Spinks was a 4-1 underdog against Tyson. Obviously Holyfield ended up acquitting himself better than Spinks, but at the time Spinks was considered the stiffer test. Is that proof that 1996 Holyfield was better than 1988 Spinks, or that 1988 Tyson was better than 1996 Tyson? Holyfield didn't have that many good performances afterward either.

Put it this way. If Tyson had run over Holyfield the way he'd done Spinks, would the general response have been that Tyson steamrolled an A-level fighter, or would it have been that Holyfield was washed up as a result of age, heart problems, and a stretch of hard fights? I don't think it's clear-cut either way (and I'm no Tyson fan).

 

It's a legacy defining fight people had been waiting for since the 80's. People were dying to see that matchup even before the Douglas fight. After Douglas, it still generated interest and the common held belief was that it was a minor setback as Tyson would finish Ruddock and get back to business.

So while technically true Holyfield hadn't looked so good in his last few fights and was an underdog, that WAS a legacy defining fight. Holyfield was factually his best opponent on paper with the best resume heading into their match. And in hindsight, it absolutely was Tyson's biggest step up in competition with Holyfield being either the best or 2nd best fighter of Tyson's era and an A level boxer.

Holyfield had earned the respect of the boxing fans after his courageous, legendary duels with Dokes, Foreman, Bowe, etc and they stopped calling him a blown up cruiser. Even if Tyson had managed to KO him within 3, they'd have no choice but to give Tyson credit since Holyfield has virtually cleared out the division and had a stellar resume heading into the fight.

 

Oh please. When someone like Saintpat likes this comment then you know you're hanging on that branch all by yourselves!

 

At the time it certainly wasn't a legacy fight. Holy was thought to be done and all I remember is concerns for his health.

The rematch was more of a legacy fight.