Which Heavyweight Champion benefited most from weak competition?

Sorry. Double that, forgot about Lastarza.

 

How did I miss your point? Your point was that Ali defended against weak opposition because if you put your great mind to it you can find faults with everyone of them. That Ali defended against more ranked opposition than anyone except Louis and that no one really is missing on his record meant nothing to you in that light.

My main point was that this is drivel and that you can dissect every champion's challlenger and make them seem like bums. I asked you who defended against a better crop, against challengers nothing can be said against, but you have been silent on this. Probably becuase you have nothing of interest to say. You sure haven't had so far.

I'll try again: If Ali benefitted as a champion from weak opposition, who didn't?

 

:good

 

It was not meant as a knock on Rocky, really, (he defended against the best at the time) rather to show how easy it is to nit pick a championship reign.

 

So because Bokaj used pertinant facts that you can't refute, he's a nuthugger? Why don't you answer his questions and provide facts of your own, rather than using petty insults?

 

Apologies mr magoo and bokaj man - the nuthugger thing was said with a smile on my face - but mr magoo if u look back I've already refuted virtually every point bokaj made - which seemed to be mainly opinions as opposed to facts to refute what you've just said aswell (for instance saying mildenber was a decent fighter is not stating fact - it's stating an opinion (and one which off the mark too) - but seriously nothing was meant to offend - people seem to have a hard time swallowing anything to suggest their opinions on Ali are a bit on the biased side and not completely acurate as a result - and in answer to bokajs question marciano definately beat better quality skilled boxers than Ali ever beat certainly but as I said foreman was a good win but not in defence of title and lyle was a good win too and norton but walcott/Charles/Moore were all better than lyle and norton anyway

 

That Ali defended against more ranked contenders than anyone bar Louis certainly is a fact. It is also a fact that every deserving contender with the exception of Foreman got a shot at his title. This is certainly more solid ground than you and me arguing endlessly whether Liston took a dive, if Patterson was in his prime or long past it, if Mildenberger was decent or merely average etc etc.

And to once more repeat my question: if Ali's opposition was so weak, which champion faced a really strong one?

 

Yes, but the difference is, Ali's legacy does not rest on the shoulders of Lyle and Norton, whereas Walcott, Charles and Moore were Marciano's signature wins.. Marciano beat Walcott for the title, then defended against him the rematch.. The same can be said for Ali's wins over Liston who commonly rates higher than Walcott and wasn't in the last fight of his career... Charles and Moore were also good title defenses for Marciano, but what about Ali's defenses against Joe Frazier, ( In Manilla ), Floyd Patterson and Jerry Quarry? You've already made the argument that Patterson was past his prime, but what about Archie Moore who was 38 years of age, or even most of Marciano's best opponents for that matter? How about Don Cockell? was this considered as a great opponent by most people's standards?

 

Ranked cotenders?? that don't mean anything if they were weak opponents - all it says is that is the likes of Rudi Lubbers, Alfredo Evangelista, the Brian London's etc were ranked contenders for the title then it doesn't say much for the depth of talent that was around when they were - which is another over played card by a lot of folk

More solid ground than arguing whether Liston took a dive?? I don't think theres anymore solid ground than that

also again watch the film of the first Ali-Patterson - you can't seriously say that onm the night he was anything more than a weak opponent

plus about Mldenberger just an interesting footnote - one of my mates lives next door to an old guy that used to box in the forces back in the sixties and this guy sparred with Mildenberger and said he wasn't particularly great really and that was coming from a basic amateur

I haven't really argued that any one champ did have a particularly strong set of opposition in relation I was just making the point that Ali's gets wildly overrated overall most of the time - and then you started bashing Marciano and simply said that I don't think Ali ever beat a better set of actual skilled boxers than Walcott/Charles/Moore that was all - i suppose you'll never entertain the idea that I might be right so I guess it's all a mute point :roll:

 

(1) well Lyle and Norton were 2 of his toughest opponents

(2) I just think they were both past it by that stage really - back when it mattered and they were both the better side of 30 Frazier gave Ali his first whuppin

(3) against Floyd in 66 Patterson could barely stand straight let alone fight - that was my point - he was a name but under the actual circumstances it was no fight whatsoever - so you've just underlined my entire point in that statement pretty much - you're an example of someone just throwing well known names around while disregarding the actual facts of the fight itself and expecting people to go oh yeah he fought all the good ones just because Patterson was a good name - but in reality on the night he was about as weak an opponent as it is possible to get away with fighting??

(4) again you're throwing figures around but disregarding the actual fight itself - do you just read stats and not actually watch fights?? - Archie Moore has said himself that his fight with Marciano was his finest night - and a far as your reference to the ages of other opponents Walcott against Marciano fought probably his best ever fight against Rock also - and Ez put up a magnificent fight too - just watch the fights - don't just listen to baloney about ages and/or (in the case of Ali-Patterson just see a name and assume that well there he's fought a good opponent because when you actually watch the fight you actually see how pitifully incorrect you've been

(5) Fair enough - but Marciano didn't make a habit of fighting that level of opponent whereas Ali did - also Cockell put in one of the gamest ever stands I have ever seen as well so its not all bad - think his management picked that one to ease him back gently after ROCKYSSPLITNOSE....haha thats me!!

 

check out Wlasa record. most of the fights are good names and maybe have 1-3 loses, check that for his last 20 fights. He is just good.

 

Who??

Eeerrr??

Hay??

 

I hardly even counted these among his ranked contenders. They were fringe contenders at best.

But Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Folley, Frazier, Young and Norton were all top ranked at the time Ali faced them. Chuvalo, Mildenberger, Lyle, Shavers and Bugner had all been ranked contenders for several years when Ali faced them. These were the ones that were around to face at the time. A very decent crop and, crucially, the one available.

Ok. So Ali had the luck of weak opposition, and is wildly overrated as a result, but no champ really faced stronger? That's your conclusion? You sure bring a lot to this forum.:good

These, in their primes, were all probably more skilled than anyone Ali met. But their primes had all passed them when they challenged Marciano, and for two of them it was in a lower weight class. I don't bash Rocky for it, though, because they were still the best available. Just showing how easy it is to pick a reign apart.

Let's have a go shall we.

Jack Johnson: Best challenger a shot to pieces Jeffries, next best a MW.

Dempsey: Best challenger a guy who easily beat him, next best... Firpo?

Louis: Best challenger a guy that really beat him the first time according to most, next best an old Schmeling scared stiff in an extremely hostile enviroment.

Marciano: See above.

Patterson: The two best KO'd him three times all in all.

Holmes: A green Witherspoon and a LHW who beat him.

Tyson: Tucker and an old inactive Holmes coming off two straight losses.

Etc, etc. This is far from the whole story with most of these champs, but if one wants to, it's easy to make them look bad.

 

...

 

Joe Louis