Which is the greater win: Douglas KO Tyson or Max KO Louis

No contest. Schmeling was a former champ, Douglas was a has been fighting someone deemed to be invincible.

 

Mike Tyson was a reigning champion deemed in his prime. Joe Louis was certainly a hot contender and viewed as the best heavyweight in the world but had not yet won the title. I have to go with Douglas’s win over Tyson.

 

Ehh not to disparage Douglas’s win over Tyson but Tyson to me looked visibly inferior to his ‘86-‘88 rendition (looked about the same as the ‘89 rendition) Their were also contemporary reports before the fight, saying he was in terrible shape.

 

The Louis Max beat >>>> the Tyson that Douglas beat

 

Came into the thread expecting to pick Douglas over Tyson but as I stated earlier, it’s clear as day, Tyson was terrible that night.

To be fair, Louis was also not taking Schmeling seriously.

The outlier though is what they both went on to accomplish after the fight. Louis would go on to win the title, and embark on probably the greatest HW title reign of all time

Tyson on the other hand never regained the lineal championship and never re-established himself at the top of the food chain.

Louis-Schmeling is one of those fights where the win ages like fine wine, because of what the loser goes on to accomplish after the fight. The Liston-Patterson bouts also fall under this umbrella, and it’s looking like Usyk-Dubois does as well.

 

Agreed. I’ve been saying the same thing for over 30 years and most of the time it falls on def ears. But the magnitude of it was huge.

 

Louis is one of the two greatest heavies to ever do it, arguably #1, and Tyson finished much lower than expected at the time. Douglas had the greater UPSET, but Schmeling the greater WIN by far from historical perspective and it is not close or debatable.

Before everyone jumps on to attack me, please take a deep breath, count, and consider the truth of the words.

 

The greater win is Douglas over Tyson, whether Tyson was terrible or not.

Repeating what others posted, Schmeling beat an undefeated Louis who hadn't been to the mountaintop. Tyson was making his 10th defense of the title and was deemed "invincible" by many. Louis was a major prospect and future great but hadn't accomplished much at the time.

Louis not losing another bout until returning from retirement gives him leverage. But Tyson went to prison and lost some of those prime years but was also facing better competition than Louis when we're factoring in their entire career.

Tough one when I think about it more but Douglas beating Tyson was and still is considered monumental. It's the greater win.

 

Louis absolutely did not have the same position as Tyson at the moment of the fight. The sports level shown by Douglas is also much higher. In my opinion it's not even close. In a historical sense, knocking out Louis may look as good or even better than knocking out Tyson, but realistically, what Douglas did in Tokyo is simply monumental in every respect and we can't deprecate it here with the fact that Tyson was already worse at that point he was on a very high peak. Douglas definitely!!

 

Definitely Douglas knocking out Tyson imo.

 

Some great arguments for Louis, particularly given what he did thereafter. No other losses for many years, and a lengthy, dominant title reign. Louis lost to Schmeling in 1936, and didn’t lose again until 1950, after he was retired and forced to come back. Also, Louis looked so good prior to the Schmeling fight, beating guys like Carnera and Baer, both former champions. He was a killer puncher. He looked phenomenal against Baer, a guy who had stopped Schmeling.

But some great arguments that Louis was not yet champion, and Schmeling was a former champion, with a lot of experience at 48-7-4, so perhaps not a huge upset given that one guy had championship level experience and ability and the other was a talented up and comer, but still quite young and developing and not yet champion, at 24-0. Louis had only been a pro for 2 years, since July 1934.

Tyson, on the other hand, in 1990 was seen as a very dominant force, he was world champion since 1986, the youngest heavyweight champion ever, undefeated, 37-0 with 33 KOs, already with a lot of successful title defenses, quite dominant as champion, mostly winning by knockout, a tremendous force of nature, and had beaten opponents better than Douglas.

Where I really think this fight gets the edge is that Douglas was not as well respected as Schmeling. Douglas not only was not a former champion, he was seen as a much lesser contender, a body for Tyson to perform upon. Let’s face it, his estimation has gone up with time, but at the time, he was seen practically as a no-heart no-condition very inconsistent fighter without the ability to truly test Tyson. The only guy at that time seen as a true potential real fight and threat was Evander Holyfield.

In 1981, Douglas got stopped in 2 rounds by David Bey in Bey’s pro debut. Bey later got stopped in 10 by Holmes. In 1982, Douglas won a close majority 6-round decision over 193-pound 12-2 Rick Ennis. In 1982, Douglas fought an 8-round draw with 207-pound 13-0-1 Steffen Tangstad, a guy who subsequently would get stopped in 4 rounds both by Anders Eklund and Michael Spinks. In 1983, Douglas got TKO’d in 9 by 12-5-1 Mike White. White lost his next fight, a 10-round decision, to Adilson Rodrigues, a guy Holyfield and Foreman both stopped in 2. In 1984, Douglas won a majority 10-round decision over Randall Tex Cobb. In 1985, Douglas lost a majority 10-round decision to then 11-0 Jess Ferguson, getting outworked. Ferguson went on to get stopped in 10 by Carl Williams, a guy Tyson stopped in 1, and Mike Tyson in 6. Ferguson also lost a decision to James Smith, a guy Tyson beat as well.

In 1986, Douglas won a 10-round decision over 24-4 Greg Page, which may have been his best win up to that point. He followed that up with an 8-round decision over Dave Jaco, a guy Tyson stopped in 1. In 1987, Douglas fought for the vacant IBF heavyweight crown, and showed speed and skill in a competitive and close contest, but ultimately gassed and got hurt and stopped in the 10th round by Tony Tucker. Tucker went on to lose a 12-round decision to Tyson.

In 1988, Douglas showed a very quick stiff jab in dropping and stopping then 16-1 Mike Williams. In 1989, Douglas won a 10-round decision over 35-6-1 Trevor Berbick, a guy Tyson stopped in 2. That probably was Douglas' best career win. However, at that point, Berbick was looking shopworn, having been a pro since 1976, and within the last year Berbick had lost a 12-round decision to Carl Williams, a guy Tyson stopped in 1. Then Douglas won a 10-round decision over then 14-2 Oliver McCall. But who was McCall at that time? He was inexperienced and better known as a durable sparring partner for Tyson. He had lost a 6-round decision to 9-2-2 Mike Hunter the year before, and had no name wins on his record, unless you count a 4-round majority over pro debuting Kimmuel Odum and 10-round decision over Dave Jaco, who Tyson stopped in 1.

At best, Douglas looked like a solid guy with some speed and skill, who had been improving recently, had a fair amount of experience, but had done nothing special, did not look like a formidable foe for a guy like Tyson, had not exactly been dominant or looked great in his career, and had a lot of losses that made you wonder about him, and even wins that weren’t overly impressive.

So yeah, in the final analysis, the then vaunted Tyson, who was being discussed as one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, who not only won, but blew through top guys, should not have lost to a guy like Douglas, But as we now all know, when a motivated guy with some ability gets in top shape, and meets an unmotivated guy who doesn’t respect him, doesn’t train and live right, and is distracted by a lot of outside the ring nonsense, anything can happen.

 

Tyson Douglas is the greater upset, Schmeling was a far better fighter than Douglas....

 

All the arguments for Tokyo Buster seem to be predicated on Tyson's perceived "aura" being greater than Louis' on the respective nights. On merit, however, that doesn't hold up. 24-0 Yankee Stadium Joe Louis is a h2h tougher out (for a man his own size) than was 37-0 Tōkyō Dōmu Mike Tyson (for a man his own size). True, both were coming off impressive streaks mopping up with kayos left & right. That version of Joe was by absolutely no means some green shrinking violet (pardon the mixed chromatic metaphor), fresh off having improbably eradicated Uzcudun. That version of Mike was palpably depreciated from the one prior to Cus' expiration, with his decline telegraphed in his struggles with Tucker and Bonecrusher.

The argument that Schmeling was a champ and Douglas a fat and chronically lazy has-been serves to fuel arguments that it was a greater upset - not a better win. Those are two different things.

As for saying Tyson's scalp held more value intrinsically just by dint of him wearing a belt and Louis having not done so yet - come on. I expect more from Classic. Is a win over Sam Langford worth less than a win over Carlos Baldomir?

Douglas' is a greater upset, perhaps the greatest in the history of the heavyweight division if not all of boxing.

Schmeling's is the better win, because '36 Brown Bomber was a better and more dangerous opponent than '90 Kid Dynamite.

 

A very salient point made here I considered myself thinking about the question. There is plenty to be said for Schmeling being a better fighter than Douglas, in support of the Douglas fight, but a great counter is where Louis & Tyson went after these defeats. The Schmeling win grew, the Douglas win shrunk. Enough to close the gap? I am of the opinion reasonable minds may disagree.