Which of The Ring Champions do YOU recognise as the true lineal champions.

Also I don't agree with the one year rule and it's really nothing more than an arbitrary convention. Cliff Rold put this best when discussing whether Floyd's inactivity should have resulted in his removal and if Pac-Mosley should somehow be for the lineal title:

Honestly I think Floyd has a far better claim to being lineal at 147 on this basis than he does via wins over Marquez and Guerrero.

 

I was going to bring up Erdei/Gradovich.

There are some people out there who believe that retirement doesn't end a lineage.

I suppose that used to be the old way of thought as some/most people didn't recognize Johnson or Charles as the HW champ until they beat Jeffries and Louis, respectively.

 

I disagree about Guerrero. Guerrero was the #3 WW behind Floyd and JMM. You could make a case for Pac and Bradley but that would be more in a "P4P" type debate where you're judging their talent and career accomplishments rather than simply at the moment divisional ranking. Floyd/JMM '09 is one of those rare circumstances that allowed, in my opinion, for Floyd/Guerrero to provide us with a true top man.

As for your quote, I agree but at the same time not. Times have changed since Dempsey. If there was no "1 year inactivity rule," then a lineal champion would be champion for life, essentially. What if they simply never had an official retirement announcement? At what point would you cut them off from holding the division hostage?

 

Another question...

Did the result of Matthysse vs. Peterson affect your JWW or WW rankings?

Because for me they did not. I know the 141 pound catch weight had no impact on the fight itself, but the bottom line to me is that that fight was at WW. Peterson didn't lower in my 140 rankings, and the win wasn't nearly enough for Matthysse to enter my 147 rankings.

I'm guessing I'm in the extreme minority here and most people dropped Peterson down there top 10 at JWW. But the fight wasn't at JWW, so to me rankings are unaffected. That is what P4P lists are for.

 

On Guerrero, I don't think he should have been ahead of Pacquiao. Even with the questionable decisions in his previous two fights, I see no persuasive reason to drop Pacquiao out of the top 3, especially in comparison to Guerrero. If we're sticking entirely to official cards, Bradley has a stronger claim to being ahead of him as well.

I appreciate your second point, but I don't think that slippery slope kind of thinking should result in Floyd being chucked for waiting 14 months between the Mosley fight and the Ortiz announcement. I think you can reasonably continue to regard a guy as the champion in his division (or even maintaining his ranking) for longer than a year without being held hostage. And I think the length of time Pacquiao was recognized as The Ring champion at 140 is no less problematic than any beneficial ranking for Floyd. Then again it doesn't really make sense to use The Ring's perspective here anyway since their decision to not recognize the winner of Mosley-Margarito as the champion in the first place wasn't particularly well-founded.

 

X 2, good posting pp

I agree and your last sentence sort of turns the whole debate full circle.

I honestly think in the end the only wrong decision that could be made regarding the WW lineal title from 2008-present would be for someone to recognize the winner of Pacquiao vs. Mosley for the title. It is an interesting time period that tests how you judge lineages, though...

 

Oh regarding this... I respect your opinion for sure but this is largely how I look at:

-I scored Pac/JMM III 8-4 to JMM. I look like a Pacquiao fanboy who worships him for having kept Pacquiao as my #2 WW after that fight.

-I scored Pac/Bradley 9-3 to Pacquiao. But I thought every single round was close and that Pac looked pretty bad. I look like the biggest Pac fanboy on the face of the Earth for keeping him #2 at WW. The line between he and a bunch of other guys at WW is so amazingly thin that I couldn't justify to you how I ranked him at #2.

-Pac got KTFO by JMM in IV. Clearly, by this point in time I cannot simply give him recognition from what he did 8 years ago, for having a huge fanbase, for me still thinking he is great H2H. He simply is not at the top of the WW rankings. Def not above Mayweather or JMM (clearly, w/o debate there), and not above Guerrero with 2 quality top 10 opponent wins on paper and in my head over the previous just one year. Pac was 1-2 over the previous 18 months. 1-2 on paper and in my head.

So I really don't see how anyone could cling onto Pac being ranked above Guerrero going into 5/4/13.

 

Essentially I regard the win over Bradley as more impressive than Guerrero's work at welter, and it was recent enough with respect to the Marquez knockout that I have a hard time dropping him. Yes Bradley was kind of moving up, but he had also thoroughly outboxed what has proven to be a quality welter prior to taking on Pac. I agree with you that it's hard enough to keep Pacquiao ahead of Marquez after the third fight and makes no sense at all after the fourth. I just have a hard time giving Guerrero a significant enough boost to also trump him. Yes he beat two top 10 guys, but I should say that a) I thought the Aydin fight was closer than most, even verging on a draw and b) that I think the welterweight division has been extremely shallow aside from the top 2-4 guys, so beating top tenners hasn't counted for much for me over the past 5 years.

Tangentially, I think nothing illustrates this shalloweness more than the fact that there was legitimate discussion as to whether Pacquiao-Mosley should have somehow established a lineage or that favoritism was cited as a reason for Ortiz being ranked ahead of Mosley at the end of 2010.

 

I dunno, I think with catchweight fights which are so marginally different from the established weight class that it may make sense to still adjust the rankings for the nearest weight class. This is especially the case for Matthysse-Peterson which only took place above 140 because Matthysse wanted to maintain his guaranteed shot at Garcia; there were no actual weight based issues for that fight not occurring at 140.

 

Agree to disagree but I see what you're saying and have nothing but respect for that opinion when articulated in such a way.

Agree with the second part wholeheartedly.

 

That'd be Grachev perhaps?

 

People claiming Danny Garcia isn't the lineal Junior Welterweight champion are insane deluded, or haters.

Timothy Bradley was the lineal JWW before he moved up to WW. He was supposed to have a fight with Khan to determine the "undisputed" JWW champion, but Bradley decided to move up instead which made Khan the lineal champion. Khan fought Peterson next in a controversial decision, which added even more controversy when Peterson's testosterone levels were through the roof. Ring dropped him out of the rankings, and he's been inactive for a year anyway, so his lineal-ship can't be held accountable for. So Khan, being the number 1 and Garcia being the number 3 fought for the lineal title. Garcia won by KO, and thus, his reign began.

Garcia is indeed the lineal champion at JWW, even having a win over the last man to beat Lucas in Judah. Once he fights Lucas, then that person would become the "undisputed" champion in the division. There's a difference between undisputed champion, and lineal champion.

 

Erdei - Grachev was a 10 rounder.