Which of These Men of Color Could Have Been Lineal Champion, with no Color Line?

I think Langford and Wills would have had very good shots. Wills perhaps the best.

Peter Jackson, from earlier, also probably could have been champion.

 

Harry Wills almost certainly. Probably Sam Langford at some point.

I think McVea could have done it if the right fights happened, but maybe not. I think Joe Jeanette would have required more luck still TBH.

Peter Jackson is the other that almost certainly would have been without the Color Line.

I think Denver Ed Martin would've needed a ton of luck and good match making, and almost certainly wouldn'thave held it long. I don't think Bob Armstrong or Frank Childs would have had any serious chance, and would have been unlikely to get a title shot.

Larry Gains is another interesting one, probably good enough to pick up the title in the 30s under the right circumstances. Maybe just above Joe Jeanette, mostly because the title was changing hands more

In order probably
1. Harry Wills
2. Peter Jackson
(The difference really being Wills's excellent longevity)
3. Sam Langford
(I think it's possible Jack Johnson would have had his number enough to stop him winning the title, but I think he'd more likely win it eventually)
4. Sam McVea
(I think his nest chance was probably pre-Jack Johnson winning the title, so his earlier peak separates him from Joe Jeanette)
5. Larry Gains
6. Joe Jeanette
(He was good enough to pick it up at some point with the right circumstances, but I can't see any time where it looks especially likely)
I think these guys are getting into the possible but really not likely territory
7. Denver Ed Martin
8. George Godfrey II
After this point I don't think they have much of any reasonable chance.
9. Bob Armstrong
10. George Godfrey I
11. Frank Childs

There's others, but they are pretty obscure and I don't feel confident to comment on them.

 

Any and all of them would have run roughshod over all of the white fighters of the era. That was the whole point of invoking the color line, so as to protect white fighters

 

I believe all the above COULD have been lineal champion, as i believe without the colour line the possibility of them fighting for the big prize, would have given them a massive impetus/opportunity to do better than their colour line career records.

 

Nothing to add, perfect explaination.

 

That's not true. White fighters and black fighters fought all the time in every weight class, heavyweight included. The color line was to prevent a black man from fighting for the Heavyweight Title.

Only one guy held that title at a time.

Harry Wills may have had a pretty good shot at beating Willard, actually, in the late teens. Wills was large enough and skilled. And Willard didn't fight much at all, other than exhibitions.

Unlike many, I don't see Wills beating Dempsey when he was champion.

Gains beat a very young Max Schmeling in the mid 20s. Again, I don't see Gains beating Dempsey or Tunney at all to lift the crown from them. And by the time Schmeling held the title five, six, seven years later, I think Max stops Gains.

I think Willard could've handled guys like Jeannette in the late teens.

Langford gets a lot of buzz around here with pound-for-pound fans, but I don't see him beating Burns when he was champ, Johnson when he was champ, Willard when he was champ or Dempsey when he reigned. Too small.

McVea, Godfrey ... no.

So, maybe Harry Wills against Willard is the best (and probably good) bet.

Otherwise, I don't know if heavyweight title history would've changed all that much. Then again, Wills beating Willard would've changed things quite a bit, I imagine.

 

Why? Langford wasn't smaller than Burns and he was far better.

 

When Burns was champ, Langford wouldn't have beaten him either.

 

Before 1909, Langford already beat HWs like Jeannette, Sandy Ferguson, Tony Ross or Jim Flynn. Why do you think he wouldn't beat Burns, who wasn't bigger than him anyway?

 

I don't think Johnson ever loses to McVea, Jeannette or Langford. They were certainly better at different points, but had either of them got a title shot, I don't see them dethroning Johnson.

I also don't think Wills ever beats Dempsey, again he was very deserving and was better at certain times, but had he ever got a shot I don't think he takes it.

Old Jeffries, Hart and Burns all would have lost to the first decent black contender they faced though.

 

Tommy Burns was champ from February 1906 to December 1908. He made 14 titles defenses.

Pick a night when Burns defended the title and tell us when Sam Langford beats him.

I see who Langford is losing to and tying with those years.

I don't see Langford upsetting the Word Heavyweight Champion and taking the title at any point from 1906 to 1908.

Because I don't see Langford beating Jack Johnson for the title. I think he's too small to beat Willard for the title. And I don't see Langford beating Dempsey for the title.

So, IMO, that's the window for Langford ... 1906-1908.

 

First would likely have been Tom Molyneaux. Lost a championship fight to Tom Cribb after a mob of white folks stormed the ring and broke one of his fingers. This was around 1812 IIRC.

 

When Jeffries was "old" as a champion though? I don't see any black contender beating him at the time he retired, probably not even Johnson.

 

I think Langford would beat him at the night he defended against Johnson for starters.