Which of these swarmers would give Ali most trouble?

There's no option for Frazier/Dempsey.

I think he'd have his easiest against Marciano then Mike. Dempsey would follow-- he has it in him to crowd Ali-- but I still don't think he'd win.

Ali would be hard-pressed to triumph over Frazier even in his prime. There's a chance he might eke out a win though, and he may even be the favorite, I don't know.

 

I am a HUGE tyson fan and it is my opinion that even at his peak, this is the one fight I would always see Tyson losing. watching the Quick Tillis angelo dundee trained fight, I can't help but remark about how much trouble Tillis's movement and style gave tyson.


Personally I dont think tyson was a swarmer. He was a slugger. He shouldnt be listed in this thread. I think Marciano pre 1954 was more a slugger than a swarmer too.


Too answer the title of the thread heres how I see it

Give Ali most problems rated 1-4

1. Joe Frazier
2-3. Still debating between Jack Dempsey and Rocky Marciano - Ali remarked in 69 in PRIVATE to Dundee he was shocked at how difficult marciano was too hit with a clean jab
4. Mike Tyson

 

Mike Tyson and Joe Frazier

 

All of them would give him trouble except for Dempsey IMO.

Frazier would keep on his chest and never let him breathe, as he did in the FOTC.

Marciano brought awkward, nevereending pressure.

Tyson was extremely fast, powerful, and very technical in how he broke his opponents down. He excelled at chasing down movers, too.

Dempsey, on the other hand, lacks the pressure of Frazier and Marciano and the sheer power/explosiveness and technique of Tyson.

 

Marciano would be a lot of trouble for Ali, he was a rythym breaker and had a powerfull double hook as well as a killer right, Dempsey had speed and proberly one of the most deadly hooks but Dempsey did not have Marciano's stamina...A prime Frazier beat and beats a prime Ali like in the 1st fight but Frazier went down hill after Ali/Fraz 1...all these guys were faster and just as powerfull but had more stamina than the slow,power guys Ali feasted on Liston,Foreman

 

Other than possibly being cut too much, to me Marciano is the perfect storm opponent for Ali. IMO he has more to work with than Frazier. Frazier bobbed and weaved predictably, Marciano's movement was almost random, which made him hard to time and hit cleanly. This movement also lead to an unpredictable arsenal, which also included a very effective left hook. His stamina was as good as anyones, speed and movement underrated, and he never had trouble landing on anyone he ever fought.

This is a a pick em fight for me. The 3 others I favor Ali.

 

Walcott stated that Marciano was a lot harder to catch with significant punches than he looked,but Rocky was slowish afoot,he would keep attacking but I see Ali inflicting enough facial damage to get the fight stopped around the 11th.Frazier would allways give Ali fits,relentless and quicker than Rocky at getting in to range ,he ,like Marciano was willing to pay the price to get inside,[something Tua wasnt against Lewis],Frazier had better hand speed than Marciano,but one money punch,saying that the left hook was the shot Ali was vulnerable to,and Joe could throw it allnight.Dempsey had great power in both hands fast feet good evasive weaving and rollong technique,but he tended to slow down after his intial burst,I think Ali survives his tornado and statrs to potshot and time his man around the 8th,gradually dominating the Mauler.Tyson would be very dangerous because of his allmost comparable hand speed,and his power is excellent,he might score a kd,but Ali would get up clinch and jab his way out of trouble,possibly stopping the discouraged Tyson late ,around the 14th.
Frazier Dempsey andTyson for me with the slower but formidable Rocky bringing up the rear.

 

For me, a tossup between Joe Frazier and Marciano.

I don't think Tyson has the sustained intensity to beat Ali, nor has Dempsey.

Frazier and Marciano were superbly conditioned athletes who could go 15 hard rounds no problem. Both also constanty bored in and put amazing pressure on the other guy.
Both had suficient chins to take a lot of punishment and fire back and lastly both had an incredible desire to win.

Frazier demonstrated time and again that he would always give Ali hell. With Marciano we will never know, but he has the right physical and mental tools to do the same.
Cuts could be a factor, but Marciano always fought even harder after getting cut.

 

I would throw Sam Langford into the mix.

He had a lot of stylistu=ic quirks that would have given Ali trouble, not least his own movment which I can see breaking ali's rythm a bit.

 

I think that was more of a case of a bad night for Tyson more than anything, because we've seen Tyson fight a lot of movers/jabbers, particurally Holmes and Biggs, and Tyson had no problem dispatching them. The Tyson who fought Tillis was still learning and that was a good experience fight for him. Biggs was basically a Ali-wannabe, and Tyson systematically broke him down and knocked him out easily. That's not to say Biggs is in Ali's league, but they had the same style. Same goes for Holmes who tried to use the ol' Ali shuffle or whatever, and got a nice right hand to the chin for it. Tyson always said, "you can run but you can't hide, I'm gonna catch you eventually."

In any case, I'm not gonna say Tyson would beat Ali, but I definitely think he could. His combined speed & power and technical skills were better than Frazier. Frazier was perhaps more aggressive but Tyson showed more effective aggression with better defense and more accurate, sharp punches. He also hit way harder. I'd say this fight is 50-50, personally.

 

I kind of think that Frazier was always tailor made for the job, though I wouldnt dismiss the others as threats.

 

This is Patterson's take on Ali -Tyson (in Hauser's biography on Ali): "... anybody who moves like Clay moved is going to give his opponent a lot of problems. I've seen Tyson with guys who moved a bit, and he had difficulty, so imagine putting him in with Clay. Mike can be hit with a left jab if you time it properly. I don't think he would've gotten by Clay's left. And he wouldn't have knocked Clay out, because Clay took a very good punch and almost never got hit. Clay beats Tyson."

Seeing that Floyd had a simiral style to Tyson and himself met Ali, I would think that he knows what he talks about. Also the fact that guys like Tucker (until he busted his hand) and Douglas gave Tyson so much trouble by sticking and moving supports the case for Ali.

Dempsey was style-wise similar to Tyson (or rather the other way around) so I think the same more or less applies here. Dempsey had higher work-rate and better stamina though, but didn't punch as hard or as quickly on the other hand.

Frazier was well controlled by Ali in their second fight, the one of their three fights where Ali was closest to his peak version. Even if Frazier was somewhat sharper in FOTC and Ali was in very good shape, I think Frazier was a bit closer to his absolute peak than Ali in that fight.

Marciano was slower than Frazier, but also more awkward. Maybe that awkwardness could off-set Ali. Bonavena and Norton was excellent examples of how awkward fighters could trouble Ali.

All in all I have it like this:

1. Frazier/Marciano (really hard do pick here)
2. Tyson
3. Dempsey