Which of these swarmers would give Ali most trouble?

I agree that he sometimes didn't seem to use the upper-cut as often as he should, but watch his second fight against Quarry. There he uses his upper-cuts with great effect.

 

Dempsey had a terrific left hook and he was very fast at his peak. He would be trouble for Ali. You need great speed to beat a peak Ali. Marciano falls short in that department but he keeps on coming and never stops. Ali's lateral movement is the factor. He never used it well in the first Frazier fight (he wanted to slug it out with Joe for some reason - macho ego took over and his legs had gone after 5 rounds and he became a stationary target), he used lateral movement a lot more in the 2nd fight (learnt his lesson and was in better fighting condition). Tyson would end up like Liston. If Ali is at his peak in terms of movement then it's hard for anyone to trap him on the ropes long enough to do serious damage. Stuck On the Ropes is the worst place for Ali to be against a swarmer as the first Frazier fight proved. The Ali that could dance all nite against Terrell woulda been a much harder fight for Joe. No question about that.

 

Problem is a high energy swarmer makes you want to lay on the ropes to rest and Ali could not keep that pace on his toes, Terrel had no power and no pressure(different kind of fight) a swarmer with great stamina and a good left hook(Frazier) would spell trouble for Ali but Ali also got hit with a few good right hands. Any of those men Frazier, Marciano,Dempsey would give Ali a hard time but Frazier had a short prime, Dempsey was inactive towards the end, Marciano was the best example of fighting in his prime and getting out ahead of himself

 

tyson..he's bigger, stronger, faster, more skilled and punches harder than those guys as well as being more explosive.

 

That analysis is both sound and congruent with my own.

A postscript: I formerly favored Tyson over Ali but have since reconsidered after recent debates involving Tyson. He'd likely survive anything Tyson does and Tyson would fade enough at the end to concede a decision to Ali. Frazier would not stop. Marciano would never stop, although he was more prone to Ali's slice and dice shots.

 

Mike Tyson
Joe Frazier

 

Wow Chris Pontius, great explanation. You make me believe marciano has a better shot than I think. Ali commented in in 1969 in PRIVATE behind closed doors to Angelo Dundee that marciano was alot tougher to hit with a jab than he looked.

 

Yep, he's a little bigger than Frazier and Marciano :good

 

Marciano had a pretty good left as well. As you know through watching his champ fights on film Chris, it wasn't always his right that won the day! This isn't really a huge point to be made as Frazier likely hit a bit harder with his left than Marciano did.

I think Tyson was one of the best HW combination punchers in boxing's history. I have a hard time liking the guy as a person, but I do admire what he was able to do in his prime as a combination puncher - nothing can ever take that away from him!

That would be Ali's strategy regarding Tyson early on.... look him straight in the eyes, take what he had to offer, and then wear him down as Tyson's punches lost their snap. Tyson had a little bit of trouble with those able to fight back... the ability to fight back would be a given regarding Ali.

I really do appreciate this! There is little doubt in any logical person's mind that Ali could take some huge punches from either of these two - his only problem is that they would keep coming from some fighters. Of course we have the results of Joe's efforts, and he did immensely well in his one prime fight vs Ali. A prime Marciano may have just been like a Frazier on roids in a similar trilogy - able to deliver damaging blows in later rounds with both hands. As Marciano and Ali never really fought, who can say, but a prime Marciano is a lot like a prime Frazier - with the difference, perhaps, being an ability to go after a boxer like Ali with both hands late.

I'll agree that Frazier and Marciano are likely the best vs Ali out of this group. Outside of Ali, I really do think the best HW fight in history would be Frazier vs Marciano.... the two I've always admired most at HW. The guys would be like a couple of mids coming after each other God knows who would win, but if these guys would have really met, the fight would dominate 99% of the classic forum... both were that good at their style!

 

I watched Marciano pre 1953 yesterday. vs louis and layne. Anyone notice how much faster he looked on his feet than later on? I also noticed his handspeed was faster too. Perhaps cause he was young 27-28??

 

I think Rocky maintained much of what he had throughout his reign. He looked pretty fast against a defeated foe, or two, as champ?

 

Its too bad charlie goldman didnt get a hold of marciano when he was 20. Marciano would have had a chance to fully develop when he was younger in his mid 20s... rather than early 30s. When marciano was at his physical peak in 1951 vs layne and louis he still hadvnt fully developed his crouch like he would later on, if he had a chance to develop it by that age he would be even more unbeatable. With a earlier start in boxing than he got, I think he could even been that much greater. We would have also got too see marciano fight in the 1940s vs louis in a dream matchup

 

All we can say is, "Marciano did what he did", there is nothing he needs to explain... he never got stopped. We can go on forever regardimg what he may have done. What he did was sufficient. No person can ask him to do more.

This post, at its heart, asks Rocky to do more than he did. Isn't it good enough that he showed what he was? Namely, a Champion for all time. He has nothing to prove.

 

Tyson
He was big (not tall) fast and strong.
People often talk about the defencive ablities of Jack Johnson, Chris Byird and Ali, but Tyson belongs in the conversation as well. Ali would find that Tyson is no easy target to hit. Ali would have to be on his toes jabing Tyson for 12-15 rounds. I really don't see a rope a dope working.
The advantage that any "swarmer" would have against Ali is that in close rounds they may apear to be controling the style of the fight and win the closer rounds.

 

With the weakest heart, shortest staminia, and lacking the reach and knockout power to stop or outpoint a prime Ali.