Which other heavy weight champ could have defeated ali in FOTC as convincingly as frazier?

Only Frazier could have beaten Ali on that night the way he did. Definitely ! Marciano had the tools to do it but not the physicality plus his propensity to cut would have hampered him. Tyson had the tools and physicality but not,in my opinion,the mental toughness required.

 

I strongly disagree both frazier was very limited and perfectly suited for foreman. Norton never reacted well to punchers.
Foreman of Zaire was basically just a big strong boy swinging for the fences. Im not trying to diminish Ali's greatness or his wins because he is the greatest HW of all time for me but if i take emotion out of it and just look at Frazier and Norton as athletes both had GLARING weaknesses. Holmes Lewis Bowe Tucker Tyson Holyfield V.Klitschko Douglas on his best night and Liston all beat Foreman, his defense was basically just pawing and pushing his hands out for christs sake. Do you think(This might sound weird but its just a hypothetical) that if you took a top modern boxing trainer and wiped out his knowledge of boxing history before the 80s so he JUST looks at the TECHNICAL/ATHLETIC/SKILL aspect without emotion or respect for ATGs like ali or Frazier interfering with his judgement, and showed him Foremans first career that he would say this guy is unbeatable? NO! he would tell you Foreman is very very strong but INCREDIBLY LIMITED and any elite jabber/boxer with mobility, more reach than him and atleast decent power like Holmes or Tucker would bounce jabs and jab-rights off his head until Foreman gassed out and got stopped BECAUSE HIS DEFENSE WAS JUST PAWING WITH HIS HANDS AND PUSHING. Its the CIRCUMSTANCES(Ali didnt have the same mobility anymore and won the fight by spending 80% of the fight on the ropes) and PUBLIC PERCEPTION AT THE TIME(Ali was finished, Foreman is a monster) that make Alis wins that great. Boxing like any sport has evolved since then until the talent pool started shrinking in the mid 90s-2000s

Now that being said, and i know its going to upset alot of emotional people, I dont think many HWs in History IF ANY could beat Foreman of Zaire with the tactic that Ali used, he was an incredibly tough human being, and took alot of nasty bombs from Foreman. The remnants of his speed and quickness on the trigger and his ring generalship(deciding when he wants to keep the fight in which part of the ring and imposing that on foreman who was just trying to break ali in half) helped him win the action in the middle of the ring.
Alis victory DESPITE him not being able to dance and pick Opponents apart in the middle of the ring for extended Periods of time like he used to is what made that victory so special.

 

yeah Fraziers incredible will and stamina is not to be underestimated. I think that thats what won HIM the fight because as a smaller, slower fighter he needed a superhuman effort to beat Ali but i dont know if i would say that we can say that about anyone else in History that we could place in there instead of Frazier that night. There are some guys after that era that I feel are so much faster, taller, more versatile or just technically better than frazier that it wouldnt come down to needing superhuman effort and heart to beat a rusty, slower vulnerable version of Ali. Sometimes someone just gets beat without anything spectacular or "epic" happening just because of styles or pure ability. BUT if we took peak Ali of 67 that looked untouchable, then i think the guys that i favor to beat FOTC Ali like Lewis or peak Tyson would now need some kind of special performance to beat him because they match up differently in my minds eye against the best Ali. FOTC Ali looked very human and NOT JUST because of his opponent. No longer athletic enough to overcome his weaknesses but not yet experienced or smart enough to work around them effectively

 

Marciano. Rocky had incredible stamina...great conditioning...and he carried his power into the later rounds.
Went and saw the FOTC on closed circuit that night. Ali couldn't do anything with Frazier that night in 1971. So he took to playing...laying on the ropes...talking to Joe...etc. He was VERY beatable that night!!!

 

I understand what you're saying and I am saying there is no relationship between Foreman's loss and Ali's in terms of who could have beat them. Ali was very beatable in FOTC. Foreman wasn't as beatable in rumble in the jungle.

 

Agree. Too much pettyness and insults thrown around on this site, thats why i prefer being here than the General Forum

Marciano certainly had the style and the mentality and he was more of a two handed threat. I think marciano would be at great risk of getting badly cut or busted up in this fight regardless of who won though.

 

People who kept saying ali was "very beatable" that night have no clue the context of that fight.

First of all, Frazier cleaned out the division. Literally beat the stuffing out of the heavyweight tournament contenders (quarry, ellis, etc) and had beat the other recognized champion in Mathis.

Ali was undefeated prior to the layoff. He also beat quarry and the dangerous bonavena, stopping them both.

Again, Frazier was THE #1 heavy at the time and no one else was available for him to prove his greatness. Thats why he wanted the fight so bad. Frazier was at his absolute peak: undefeated, no injuries or cuts, wiped out all the contenders in spectacular fashion and knocking dudes out. Despite that, Ali gave Frazier hell and the fight was a constant back and forth war. The scorecards were very close and the knockdown just sealed the deal for Frazier. People are acting like Frazier just effortlessly steamrolled Ali and won a wide UD. Those people clearly havent watched the fight or dont know how to score.

An "easily beatable" fighter doesnt wipe out two top contenders and then give the undisputed, undefeated world champion the fight of his life and send him to the hosptial. This would be like Fury coming out of retirement, knocking out Wilder and Parker, then losing a very narrow decision to the winner of Joshua/Klitshko and getting dropped once in the 12th after a thrilling back and forth war. Would you call Fury a "very beatable" fighter in that scenario?

 

Prime Tyson(Rooney vesrsion) hadn't stamina problem (Tucker or Smith fight proved) and he had late round power also (Ribalta fight). I don't believe Frazier proved great late round power.

 

What are you talking about? Fraziers late round power is way more proven than tyson.

Tyson has only two instances of late round power: dropping douglass late (a fight he LOST) and Ribalta in the 10th

Frazier had tko 9 ellis, tko 11 mathis, dropping ali in the 15th, bugner in the 10th. Frazier fought every minute of every round. 99% of tysons kos or downs were in 7 rounds or less, its obvious his power faded. Fraziers didnt, he had VOLUME and PRESSURE. He went to the body and could fight on the inside.

For Tyson to pull of a fotc upset, hed need to be a completely different fighter. His early blitzing style might lead to a knockdown of Ali early but no way he drops Ali late. His power would rapidly fade getting belted by jabs, right crosses, flurries, and having to constantly chase ali and getting tied up and leaned on.