Which Three Lightweights Have Best Chance With Duran

Ken Buchanan was pretty good.

 

Duran destroyed Buchannan.

Control? Buchannan showed me he had one of the greatest chins in boxing history. He took a beating from the begin to the end of that fight. That was only his 21st fight and hunted and destroyed Buchanan. Ken Buchanan (HOF) took the title from Ismael Laguna (HOF) and beat Carlos Ortiz (HOF) as well. Nelson had one fight a 135. That was against Pernell and gave him one of his toughest title defenses. One fight. Nelson was a featherweight. Do you no what Duran at 135 would have done with Nelson?

McGirt gave Pernell all kinds of problems with a bum arm. No problem. Pernell won...but don't tell me he controlled the fight because he did not. He took a lot of punches. Was that the plan? To fight like a slick fighter normally but, in this fight get hit more than ever?

DLH beat Pernell straight out. I score a draw usually but that is because I am a Whitaker fan. But honestly, I do not think in anyway did Whitaker outbox, control, or anything like that with DLH. Now, if you wanna put Oscar in the ring with Duran that beat on Leonard and beat on Palomino then go ahead. Just make sure that you pick that De La Hoya over Montreal Leonard.

The Trinidad fight? Coked out Whitaker? How about overweight, KO'ed by Hearns, No-Mas'ed by Leonard, out-hustled by Hagler, Out-boxed by Benitez...yet still at 38 stood up and banged with a huge middleweight Barkley who KO'ed Hearns and dropped him and beat him. Trinidad would have had problem with that Barkley. Didn't Duran started out as a flyweight if memory serves me? Naturally bigger my foot.

I would not pick anyone at 135 in Duran record to beat Pernell but he would have a tough night with Buchanan and Dejesus. At 147. Whitaker never beats Leonard on his best night. At 154, Whitaker losses Benitez and Hearns. Those are to weight class that Pernell fought at. Pea's competition at 135 is one of the weakest in the reign of a great champion. Ramirez was done by the time Pernell got to him...and that is it. At welter his reign was not all that either except for the win over Chavez he did not nothing of note other than lose to DLH who Duran would have feasted on Trinidad too. I just noticed your line about bad losses that the same opponent would not have gone "one round" with Pernell...is if Pernell is Joe Louis. How many first round KO's does Pernell have? How many KO's does he have a welterweight period?

One round?...I am seeing unreasonable bias for Pernell with the one round comment.

 

Ken B did better than you think against Duran.. In fact Duran was so frustrated he couldn't get rid of him.. he hit him low.. You can tell duran was getting more and more frustrated as the fight wore on.. and when the low blow happened... Ken b was returning fire and tagging duran. Duran was winning the fight but let's not act like it was a clean sweep. Ken B was giving duran every bit of a fight if you think McGirt was giving Pea one.

Duran lost to Dejesus so let's not act like he was invincible. Duran wouldn't steam roll nelson at 135.. No way.. Win sure.. not dominate like you're making out. In fact, Pernell I don't even think lost one round.. nelson would do better against Duran.

You keep on bringing up his bum arm.. as if he didn't beat him even more soundly in the rematch when there was no arm issue. he did and did so even easier. I already explained they wanted pea to fight a different kinda fight against McGirt.. they didn't want him backing away.. they wanted him controlling the center of the ring and standing his ground fighting inside. Not Pea typical matador routine. In doing so, he still won the fight. McGirt would also give Duran a good fight.

Ummm no ... just no.. The only fight you could even score that fight a draw against DLH is because of that idiotic scoring system where you take a point away from the fighter not cut. That is the only reason the fight was even close. You don't do that and I have Pea winning each time.. with the point I could see a draw.. even though I still think Pea won anyways. That was a past his best Pea.. fighting past his best weight against a Prime DLH. I don't know what you mean he wasn't controlling the fight.. He absolutely was controlling it.. he couldn't control it always but he was dictating how the fight was going to be fought more so that DLH. Not sure how you can say otherwise. That DLH would give Duran all kinds of problems... especially if he foguth like he did against Felix. Sure you put the best Duran in there on his best night.. sure he wins and that's for certain. Yet we all know duran wasn't always ready to go.. thus DLH certainly could spoil Duran and that is without question.

Ramirez had lost a total of 1 fight I believe by the time Pea got to him.. but he utterly dominated and humiliated him. he certainly wasn't done and barely one a few rounds over 24 total rounds. NObody did it to him like that.. ever.

Pea does better against W.B. and Hearns than Duran did.. that is just how it would go.. no amount of nah uh's will change that. He also doesn't quit against SRL... doesn't lose to Dejeus.. Nor Bobbie.. Just how it goes man.. Pea was utterly dominate for most of his career.. Duran was great and had a great carrer but he wasn't as dominate.

 

Nelson had one fight at 135. I am not sure if he could take the power of Dejesus or box with Buchanan. Again, these men were hardcore champions at 135. Nelson at best dabbled...if that. Ramirez in his prime was solid to my limited knowledge. Pernell did not fight a prime Ramirez.

Whitakers comp at 135 was C-level at best which is one of the reasons he looked so good. Had he had to go against Duran, Buchanan, and De Jesus his record may have looked a little different. going 15 rounds at that.

 

Post your scores for the Buchannan fight.

Lets watch it and post our scores tonight. Duran ran Buchanan over, Duran was possessed. He was ahead on the cards by beating on him fair and square. Buchanan's corner was sending him out to a slaughter every round. I don't think I gave Kenny a round.

Tell how Whitaker does against Hearns at 154. Explain to me the game plan. Hearns would be the best fighter Whitaker had ever been in with. Whitaker had one fight at 154. Hearns maybe the best 154 ever...with Benitez very close. Why doesn't Pernell lose to Benitez? Lay it out for me please.

Jose Luis Ramirez one loss huh?

- Sergio Enriquez 1974, L10
- Rubin Olivares 1978,

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Canzoneri, Leonard, and Williams are the best bets IMO.

 

Duran didn't destroy Buchanan. Duran won most rounds and mauled Ken up close but Duran got out boxed on the outside at times by Ken when he stayed static too long, even getting hit by some sweet Buchanan left hand jabs and counters when he rushed in and got sloppy. Plus Duran couldn't hurt Ken enough with those big right hands and body shots he landed ****ing loads of. Buchanan was tough as nails and gritty on top of being a beautiful boxer/mover. He frustrated Duran enough for Duran to say he was the toughest guy he ever faced. Duran mauled Ken, walked through him in frustrated fashion, but it wasnt a destruction. Ken actually got the better of the last exchange, frustrating Duran into doing the nut shot. Great clash of styles that fight.

As for who had the better jab out of Pea and Duran. Duran mixed his jab in with faints and other little tricks. Duran is the GOAT at fainting, his faint variety was outstanding. Once they felt his power he could back an opponent from ring centre to the ropes just fainting the jab to the head and body, he didn't need to throw a proper solid jab to get inside. He had fighters twitching all over the place because he was so clever with his fainting, aided by his brilliant fluidly herky jerky reflexes. Duran used his jab as a probe to get inside and it didn't need to land. One of his greatest tricks was to throw a jab to maneuver his opponents Gloves/arms so he could land with the other hand, or often with the same hand.



Duran on his A game is the most all round skilled fighter iv'e ever watched.

 

I just finished the fight.

My scores

Duran: 1,2,3,4,5,7,8,11,12,13
Buchanan: 6, 9, 10

I used to think watching this fight that Duran's skills were still developing and almost raw but, as I think about the filmed fight before he won the title he was skilled although not his balanced puncher/boxer self. I think he completely had it in his mind that Buchanan was some deep kind of enemy and he absolutely no respect. He was pushing, mugging, head-butting, low-blowing, talking, and just walking like he was facing a kid.

He fought Buchanan like he was a bum peasant and walked him down, cornered him and unloaded. Buchanan is one of the toughest men to ever fight...because he had no idea he was in with the Duran in pure Demon-mode and he took everything. He would not have made the bell. Duran was getting his second wind...and Buchanan was just about done. Duran was grinding him just like he did Dejesus in the second fight. The punches Buchanan landed were of no consequence because Duran was not really trying to duck them. He was trying to get Buchanan out of there and did not care how reckless he was.

Duran dominated and destroyed Buchanan...and he were a lesser man Buchanan would have been out in the 5th...or the 8th. Duran was landing hell-fire in those to rounds. I like the word "destroyed" because he walked in took what he wanted and there was nothing the ref, the corner, or the champion could do about. You don't see fighters take titles like that today.

 

Iv'e got the fight on dvd. I agree with you on everything bar the use of the word destruction. Destruction is Jackie Brown vs Benny Lynch ll not Buchanan vs Duran. It was brutal and nasty but its not fair on Buchanan saying he was destroyed when he held up to Durans best shots, even showing skills and grit when clearly being constantly head butted and fouled. He was beaten up, clearly was losing but he worked Duran. Duran wouldn't give such adoration to a man he destroyed.

I agree Duran was to become a much slicker fighter after Buchanan but I honestly think Buchanan would've faired a bit better vs a Duran of the mind set and game plan of De Jesus ll and lll. Still losing wide though.

 

OK, I will back off the "destroyed" bit.

I think you are right about how Buchanan would have done against a more respectful Duran of III but the Duran of II was just a wild and crazy and angry and better. Buchannan would have had to earn that respect. De Jesus did by putting Duran on the mat twice. Duran realized finally, that he could not run everyone over from the first moment of the first round...and so...he boxed De Jesus. He would have gone after Buchanan even harder had they rematched at anytime until Buchanan showed that he could deliever a damaging shot.

Thanks for the reply.

 

Your entitled to your opinion though. I was reading through the thread agreeing with most of your points.

Was It De Jesus lll where Duran boxed back foot more, more from range? Yeah I think it would fair better for Buchanan if Duran tried to box back foot where Ken was masterful in full flow. It's been years since I watched them so I'm rusty on those De Jesus fights.

Buchanan had the skill and toughness to hang with any version of Duran but lacked the power to keep him at bay. Even if Ken had KO power he still would struggle to keep Duran at bay. Duran was just an animal with ridiculous work rate, strength and Iron chin.

Benny Leonard is the only guy I think could maybe beat lightweight Duran but I'm only saying that because a few of the old time trainers who seen both said Benny was just better. There's not much of prime BL so it's hard to judge.

 

Duran from the second DeJesus fight was bent on revenge...got dropped and got back up restarted the beating. He was crazy against DeJesus. De Jesus and Buchanan would have been champions for longer times if not for Duran. Those guys had no idea what kind of craziness they were in with.

Benny Leonard boxed similar to Buchanan in style, boucing, moving, jabbing, and countering, but Leonard was two levels above Buchanan. He would have given Duran all kinds of problems and possibly beaten him prime for prime. If someone thinks of Leonard as a better lightweight I would not screech. Duran and Leonard at thier best are even money because Leonard hit hard as well as he moved and fought the best routinely.

 

Let's examine this more closely shall we... Olivares was a great fighter and seasoned.. Ramirez was green in the world stage at that point. No shame there. He lost to Rosario in a CLOSE fight.. and then subsequently beat Rosario. The Alexis fight was a close one and a split decision in fact. No shame there. Camacho did beat him convincingly but he did that to a lot of guys and had ATG ability and was at the peak of his powers. Boom Boom beat him pretty soundly as well. The chavez fight wasn't a blowout and all the judges except one had it very close. Though let's remember Whitaker got to Ramirez first and was robbed of a decision THEN he lost to Chavez. Which was the start of 88'. Point is, he hung with ATG fighters and was a great fighter himself. You dont' get as many wins as he had and fight who he did and not beat great. Whitaker barely lost a round in two fights with him. Dominant

The game plan against hearns in simple... not get knocked out like Duran did.. not getting KO'd which Pea NEVER was.. means he's already done exponentially better. Whitaker would like employ his matador routine and make Hearns come to him. Not sure if Whitaker could score enough fighting that way to win.. but he wouldn't get KO'd. He could also try and fight in the pocket which he was a master at and go to war there. Whitaker was also great at going to the body.. a body punch is what hurt hearns initially with SRL. Not saying Whitaker has that kinda pop.. but sustained punches could add up. I think whitaker could fight both ways and make it a good fight.. might not win but he wouldn't get KO'd.

With W.B. I just see Whitaker coming up with a plan to beat him.. feeling him out and seeing what will work best. If they fight at range.. pea could hang with him there and it would be a good fight. I see Whitaker being better fighting at close range/in the pocket than W.B. and doing some good work there. I can see Whitaker making W.B. come to him and fighting off his back foot.. W.B. was nearly as good coming forward as he was staying in range. To me whitaker can take the fight multiple places and is the overall better fighter. I see a Decision win for whitaker in a good fight where W.B. also has his moments. It would look far better than Duran did against W.B. is the point. You don't agree?

You act like Duran was also in shape and ready to go... you keep referring to Montreal Duran.. and forgetting the Duran that showed up for W.B. or Dejesus the first time.. or SRL the second time.. Or bobbie sims etc etc. That is a prime example of fallacy 101. a Prime or close to prime Oscar always was in good shape and always put on good fights... We can't say the same about Duran. Sure if you want to pigeon hole the argument to Montreal Duran vs. Oscar.. sure Duran wins convincingly. If you want to use the true scenario than my argument fits perfectly with what could happen. DLH could spoil Duran and it wouldn't be that surprising. You disagree?

 

I gave Ken B rounds 4, 6, 9 and 10

Let's examine things a little more closely though.. round one went to Duran because of the KD.. but let's remember it was pretty close besides that.. and the KD was a punch that landed on Ken's Shoulder arm not even the head.. Let's also remember in the same round Ken B would've scored a KD of Duran if the ropes didn't save him. In actuality a very close round.

Round 3 was another close round.. not one decisively won by Duran.. could've been scored either way.. though I sided slightly with Duran.

Same with round 8 I believe.. another close round.

Point is, it was a closer fight than you gave Ken B credit for and wasn't this one sided destruction you made it out to be.

 

Just a few post ago you said that Ramirez only lost one fight...now you are an expert on all nine of his loses.

The bottom line is he was done when he rematched Pernell and basically done at the championship level when he fought him the first time. Olivarse beat him in two. Duran is much more a puncher than Olivares who usually needs a few rounds of setting his opponent up before laying into him. In this fight Olivares must have not felt any need to do that and just walked in and took this man out.

Pernell has one fight at 154 and you have him taking Hearns inside? Matador? Benitez tried that and was getting soundly outboxed. Leonard tried it and was taking a beating, Duran tried it and was layed out in 2...now Whitaker with one fight at 154 is going to show them how to do it...and if that does not work, he is going take Hearns inside? I would love to hear Pernell himself comment on that plan you have for him.

If Whitaker stays in the pocket and takes Hearns inside he is going to leave the ring screaming in pain. If he tries to stay outside he was will leave the ring lumped and barely surviving. Hearns at 154 is as good as it gets. Little Pernell would get in a world of trouble there...like everyone else. Benitez was better at slipping punches than Whitaker and he hit harder and was stronger with more punches. At 147 and 154 he beats Pea convincingly.

I keep refering to Montreal Duran because in a fantasy fight you put the best version of the fighter up and that is the best Duran at welterwieght. And that guys is considerably awesome for a guy who put in a 7 year reign as lightweight champion. The best 135 Duran is DeJesus III, 147 is Montreal, 154 Moore, 160 Barkley. These are the Duran's that I put in fantasy fights at these respective fights.

Duran lost fights to Robbie Sims, No Mas, Hearns in 2, Hagler on points, Benitez on points, and a host of other guys after the final fight with Leonard. No excuses. He also beat on Leonard two weight classes above his best weight and four weight classes above were he started his career. He also gave Hagler the toughest fight as a champion. Hagler put Hearns away in 3. It happens when you face the best.

I am in awe of Duran after 135. He was 71-1-61KO, 7 years a champion as a lightweight, then goes up and beat Leonard and Palomino, then moves up and beats Moore, then moves up and fights Hagler and beats Barkley. DLH was dropped by Hopkins with one shots in the tummy. Hopkins beat DLH worse than he beat Hakkar. DLH eked out a win over Whitaker, why do you think he can beat the best version of Duran who beat on Leonard?