Which was the better Hopkins ? Calzaghe's or Jones' ?

No. That's NOT what they're saying.

They're saying that the Bernard who fought Jones in 1993 was not as good as the Bernard who fought Calzaghe.

Completely irrelevent to the thread question.

The question is not comparing 1993 Jones to 1993 Hopkins.

It is comparing 1993 Hopkins to 2008 Hopkins.

Whether or not Jones was prime, or pre-prime is NOT the question.

Again, you're comparing 1993 Hopkins to 1993 Jones. That's NOT the question.

(And not doing much of a job with the comparison. Jones had a stellar amateur career, leading to an Olympic medal that everyone agrees should have been gold. Bernard's amateur career and coaching was not remotely on the same level).

Again, what he did from 1990 to 2005 is irrelevant to his standing in 1993.

You need to look at what he did up to 1993.

To assist you in this matter, I'll tell you what he did prior to facing Jones.

He fought 23 fights, losing one.

Of his 23 opponents, 10 had winning records. That's 43 % of them.

The total of his opponents records comes to 233 wins v 183 losses.


That's hardly stellar opposition.

His best opponent was former welterwight, Wayne Powell.

That's right, THEE Wayne Powell !

He had lost TWO fights when he met Calzaghe.

Both close controversial decisions to the same guy.

And AFTER Calzaghe, he shut out that one guy's two-time daddy 12-0.

Not completely clear, but the compelling evidence and opinion is reasonably clear, Calzaghe.

Does the futility of that statement completely escape you ?

The fact that he had such an unremarkable record PRIOR to meeting Jones, and then went 15 years without a loss, against 31 much more challenging opponents, thirty of which had WINNING records (That's 97 %) who had a total win/loss record of 859 to 83 (That's 91 %), is evidence THAT HE WAS BETTER IN 2008 THAN IN 1993 !

These victories included Tarver, Wright, DelaHoya, Trinidad, Eastman, Joppy, Hakaar, Holmes, Echols, Vanderpool and Glenn Johnson.

Again, you miss the thread question and answer something different.

Nobody disputes that Hopkins wasn't at the top of his game. He was past prime.

And he was PRE-PRIME for Jones.

The question was: Which version of Hopkins was better ?


To summarize for you:

Bernard's Opponents up till he faced Jones:

A total of 23, of which 10 had winning records that combined was 233 to 183, or 56 %.

No memorable names.







Bernard's opponents between facing Jones and Calzaghe:

A total of 31, 30 of which had winning records that combined was 859 to 83, or 91 %.

Names included Tarver, Wright, DelaHoya, Trinidad, Eastman, Joppy, Hakaar, Holmes, Echols, Vanderpool and Glenn Johnson.


(And this period included more than twenty title fights.)





Don't you think it's just possible that Bernard learned a thing or two between the Jones fight and the Calzaghe fight ?

 

To clarify, the previous post was in response to some muddled logic regarding what the thread question was, and which version of Hopkins was more experienced and skilled.

It doesn't prove an answer to the question, one way or another.

Indeed, the answer cannot be known or proven.

It boils down to opinion.


And in arriving at that opinion, one has to balance the earlier BHop's lack of serious opposition and experience, and his still undeveloped 'skill set', with his later decline in the physical aspects of the sport.

Which counted for more, the experience and skill set he gained, or the physicality he lost ?


If Bernard had retired after losing to Jones, would he be much mentioned today, or did his greatness come mostly AFTER and PARTLY AS A RESULT OF , his loss to Jones ?




Final point:

Jones' Hopkins was The RING's number 9 ranked middlewt, and not on their lb for lb list.

Calzaghe's Hopkins was the RING champion and RING lb for lb number 4.






Final, FINAL point:

I'm a big fan of RJJ.

IMO, at prime, and at 168 OR 175, he would have beaten ANY version of Joe or Bernard.

 

His stamina seemed just fine six months later when he schooled Pavlik.

Could it have been Joe's style that drained the wiley old fox ?

Yes he would. But would he have had the skillset to do anything other than stick with the 2008 version of Joe ?

 

Fair points.:good