Whitaker vs. Robinson P4P

If both were the same size, Id maybe take Whitaker. It would come down to skill level and probably go the distance. Both very well balanced packages, with Robinson more offensive with Whitaker defensive. If Whitaker did have decent power he wouldn't fight the same way of course, and a southpaw Robinson would be close to what he would be if he carried more pop. Whitaker would certainly be more hittable if he happened to carry more power than he did.

 

Robinson he has more tools to wins and feel he'll catch whitaker late and finish the fight.

 

Both the same size, I'd take the LW Whitaker honestly. As they were at WW, I'd take Robinson. This is based on what I've seen of Robinson at MW though, as the footage I've seen at WW is minimal.

I'm prepared to defend this as well.

 

Well first off I want to say I think Pete is #1 lightweight 'head to head'...IMO. It's very close between He and Duran...But I think Whitaker would edge him (barely)He has the correct style to be very problematic for Duran...Pete was just phenomenal, arguebly amongst the top two or three defensive fighters of all time...That is remarkable. Whitaker was a defensive specialist, but he had a mind set that he was the best man in the ring, and that he was the toughest...he was not afraid of anyone.
In Robinson against Whitaker, in a P4P sense, I don't think the dynamic of that is all that different from a real fight between the two actually...I feel that their fight would be decided by skills, not so much the weight difference (I did not say size)...Robinson did not try to impose his strength against opponents...he wasn't that physically powerful. He was strong enough however to fight in the trenches against LaMotta who was a small light heavy (while Ray just weighed 144 lb.)
In an actual fight at welter, I would go with Ray by decision....Pete would last the distance IMO...If contenders like Angott,Fusari, etc went the distance...It is not out of the realm for one of the best practictioners ever in Whitaker to do the same.
In a P4P sense, Whitaker would be a little stronger than normal...and retaining the mercurial speed and reflexes from lightweight, not the slightly slower welterweight version...Whitaker is clearly the better defensive tactician...Whitaker is faster of hand and feet...but keep in mind, Ray is by no means slow, he is extremely fast...Whitaker has that southpaw 'strangeness' going for him as well... and lastly, Whitaker is tough!
Robinson's main attribute is his firepower, he has a mastery of every punch from both hands, brilliant combination puncher... under and over...and he is a much harder puncher than Whitaker, even in the P4P sense...At 5'11" Ray towers over the 5'6" Sweetpea, this is a critical differential in size for the styles of both fighters, IMO...Whitaker would land his southpaw jab at times, but in this instance, he would have to reach that little extra...when he used the quick left cross, he would have to reach that little extra...Pete likes to fight at a distance, Robinson likes to fight at a distance as well...With his experience Robinson will eventually time Pernell's lunges and dips, and hurt him...Whitaker's power would not get Robinson's respect...Whitaker never faced such a complete offensive package IMO...I think SRR's offense bests Pete's defense...Robinson would turn very aggressive and win the fight, by a decision ...Pernell's moderate advantage in defense, and slight speed advantage do not offset Robinson's pronounced advantage in power, and his very effective deliverance of that power...Just my opinion.

 

Good post overall. I see Pea reacting a bit different to certain things than you do, and I noticed something as well.

When we're talking both being the same size, if Robinson was shrunken to a natural LW, he would not be quite 5'11. He is the taller, longer guy, but shrunken down to LW he would not be quite 5'11, and were Pea elevated up to natural WW, he would be perhaps a bit taller than 5'6. Either way, yes Robinson is the taller guy, just not quite by the amount you mentioned if things were inflated or deflated.

On to the matchup, and your points about Whitaker having to reach that little bit extra: I don't think it would make much of a difference honestly, as he has fought guys of similar height to Robinson, his jab is as quick as ever against most heights, as was his counter left cross(his best punch other than his jab). So, unless he was facing an evasive taller fighter or one who excelled on the defensive end, I don't see it being much of a problem, and while Robinson had good defense, he was by no means a master in that regard, his claim to fame was his amazing offense, which I will get to next.

Robinson liked to fight at a distance against a guy like LaMotta, otherwise I'd say he was more of a mid-range fighter compared to Whitaker. Mid-range was his range, noone who ever fought was as good as him in that regard I don't think, but as far as in-fighting(while good and pretty underrated despite not having, as you mentioned, great brute strength) and fighting from a distance, he was not quite on the same level. His short, compact punches were perfect for being a mid-range fighter. Against a faster, slick, evasive out fighter with the ultimate range finder(that great jab) I think it would be a bit harder for Robinson to find his range.

You say he wouldn't respect Pea's power, possibly, but that can lead to a fighter looking very bad, when they assume they will just walk over a fighter and come forward, they end up getting the jab put on them and having the ring used against them(especially against someone so good off the backfoot like Pea). I do however, agree that Robinson, who was a master of adapting, would eventually switch tactics and start to time Pea better, which could lead to a KD at some point. But overall, I'd say Whitaker outboxes him for the early portion of the fight, winning most early rounds, and perhaps losing some of the later ones when Robinson starts to adapt better. I usually favor on points the guy who can take the earlier rounds to build up the lead(I had Mayweather rightfully beating Castillo for instance).

However, what I mentioned about Robinson, his adaptability, is one thing that culd lead to him winning a rematch.

And as a sidenote, just as response to a certain point you made, I do believe the difference in their defense is very pronounced.

 

That's fine.
Agree totally on Robinson being a mid range fighter, i was trying to make the point that this fight would at times, be right in his comfort zone.
Very good point on Whitaker boxing well off the back foot, he would make Robinson miss his share of punches that is a certainty! Whitaker's defensive techniques are from a different place only he knows about... I feel Robinson would use his favorite tactic of firing between an opponents combinations in order to find an opening. He would find hitting Whitaker flush extremely, extremely, difficult...But he would take the tactical play away with combinations when Pete touches him. Whitaker is a stylistic nightmare for anybody... but Whitaker is playing with dynamite here...believe it...He will get Whitaker's attention even with grazing shots...Ray's record as a puncher backs this up....I see a flash KD of Whitaker in this...If things aren't going Ray's way, What about Ray's jab and footwork? He is only one of the best of all time...Robinson has a beautiful effortless jab, he could fight this way as well...This would be a very tactical fight, with both guys trying different approaches...I feel you are right about Pea making SRR look wild at times...But he would adapt, problably emphasizing going to the body of Whitaker...Ray would hurt any opponent his own weight badly with his power...He demonstrated this against bigger people...
On the P4P Maybe i'm figuring it wrong, but I thought if they were the same weight class, that was how it was considered...If ray wasn't 5'11" and Pete wasn't 5'6"...It wouldn't be Robinson and Whitaker(?)
Peace.

 

That's one of the problems when considering a P4P matchup, you have to deal with things like size and inflation to even things up.

 

Don't talk economics with me...

 

Well we disagree on quite a few things, which is why overall we disagree on the outcome.

First of all, I disagree with Robinson having superior footwork. Whitaker was not a mover in a sense that he did not pop around the ring on his toes like an Ali, Leonard, Robinson(at times) and others, but I have never seen anyone use the ring as good as Whitaker did. His footwork was a lot more subtle.

Second, I agree that Robinson has faster hands and better combos, but overall I don't believe he is a faster fighter, in a sense that Whitaker has better overal body movement, and is at least as quick with single shots, and even moreso with counters. I don't think Whitaker has too much trouble countering Robinson for this reason: Whitaker will be fighting off the backfoot in this fight. If he stands flat-footed, Robinson's combos will be Pea's undoing(as you can't effectively counter combos like that), but off the backfoot, behind a sharp jab, you simply can't throw effective combos against that, especially given Pea's evasive skills.

Also, you say Robinson has the clear advantage at mid-range while Pea doesn't have the clear advantage outside. I already explained this part to dpw417, I don't see how you think this. Robinson was a fighter who employed short, compact punches at preferably mid-range, even his jab was very compact, and thrown lower, which leads me to believe Whitaker clearly holds the edge in the jab department. With the edge in the jab department, I don't see how Robinson wins the outside battle, considering Whitaker will be on the backfoot, using movement, all night.

Overall, if the LW Pea faced Robinson at the same size, inflated or deflated, (as said before, at 147, Robinson wins a clear decision, as Pea would be more flat-footed, which would lead to Robinson throwing his combos more effectively) I think Pea's jab, movement off the backfoot, and evasiveness get the job done, winning him a close decision. Another analysis can be seen in my posts with dpw417.

 

In a p4p matchup I see it going like a higher level version of Whitaker-DLH, with the difference being that Robinson will land more of his combo's than DLH was able to. That will be enough to take some close rounds, and give Robinson a 9-6 edge. If they fought often enough, Robinson might catch Whitaker and stop him on the odd occasion too.

Robinson is too offensively gifted to lose this match, though I'd expect Whitaker to look quite spectacular in defeat. He would work his defensive game to its limit.

 

As I said, read my above analysis of how the fight goes overall that I made to dpw417, I believe that Robinson would start adjusting later in the fight and things may start to look better from his end, including what I feel an inevitable flash KD of Whitaker, but that Pea would win the fight on points.

As for the part I have highlighted, moving straight back was Whitaker's strong point, as he threw punches off the backfoot better than anyone I've seen. Whereas a guy like Willie Pep who moved side to side could be caught within a fighters reach and hit more effectively by a great puncher like Robinson(or even a rough houser like Angott), Whitaker's ability to box off the backfoot and punch going backwards is in my opinion much harder to deal with. Which is why I consider Whitaker a better boxer than Willie Pep, and I feel I'm unfairly in the minority in that.

 

Do you believe the prime Whitaker of his lightweight days would fight a defensive fight like the old WW Whitaker did against DLH? Or do you believe that Robinson would force Whitaker to play defensive like DLH did, being that, even though he is facing a better Whitaker, Robinson is just a better offensive fighter than DLH.

My question, I guess is, do you think Whitaker played defensive against DLH because he was past his prime, or because DLH forced him to because of his offense? Obviously he was past it, but do you think Robinson would make even a prime Whitaker do the same, just because his offense was so much better than DLH's?