McVeys thread got me thinking. the 7 best fighters from each team, must be from a time during Dempseys reign. Who makes each of the teams, and which team takes the ultimate teams match. Without thinking too much would see the following: Team White 1. Dempsey 2. Tunney 3. Greb 4. Gibbons 5. Firpo 6. Miske 7. Fulton Team Black 1. Wills 2. Norfolk 3. Tate 4. Langford 5. Johnson 6. Bearcat Wright 7. Godfrey Are these teams about right? before we start comparing common opponents and actual restults to see how these fights might go.
I'd say you have the right names ,what order you have them in is subjective. If you take Wills and Norfolk out of the equation, I think the rest of the coloured boys were average during that time. The fact that Jeff Clark challenges Wills for the Coloured title with 14 losses out of 16 fights as his most recent form emphatically illustrates this ,imo. Norfolk's resume during these 7 years is nothing to shout about either. Langford and Jeannette were both aging. The fact that Tate could give both Wills and Langford close fights, and on occasion beat them tells me there really was no "wunderkind" among the coloured lads. Is that Jack Johnson at no 5 ? If so, I think he was essentially done as a top performer after 1919. The Vanilla crew look superior to me as a bunch.Wills being the stand out of both hues. Though I'm not certain he would not have had his hands more than full with Gibbons. Tunney beats Wills or any of the others during the second half of this time-scale. imo. Interesting thread, lets see where it goes.
Jack JOhnson is probably underated. During the time of Dempseys reign, he was undefeated against mediocre opposition (these allegations sound familiar). It wasnt until the very, very end where Eddie Lawson caught up to an old ancient Jack Johnson (can any other fighter claim that description). He had wins over Pat Lester, Homer Smith, Jack Thompson, and Bob Roper amoung others. He also had George Godfrey as a sparring partner at this time and my recollection (happy to be proved wrong) is that he had no particular troubles with him. His lost Just after the Dempsey period was to Eddie lawson and Bearcat Wright but even then he still had enough to KO Brad Simmons and those losses were competive against the two of the top coloured fighters of the time. I dare say that a 7 years younger Jack Johnson from the start of Dempseys reign does an awful lot better. In some ways Wills ducking Johnson for the coloured title defence is a far bigger duck than Dempseys duck of Wills. Especially when Johnson was arguably still the coloured champion. It is his win over Thompson which gives me the most confidence, as i would have thought Thompson to have made the group ahead of clark. I am happy to listen to arguments to oust him, but i think he should stay in. I agree with your points about Langford, Jeanette and Norfolk during these times, but i still am not sure that there were better fighters around. The only unlucky omission i can think of is Eddie Lawson. It seems that the coloured fighters got stronger at the end of this period with Lawson, wright and Godfrey. With none really being Dempsey Ducks, which surprises me a bit when i think of it. It wasnt really until after the Joe Louis era that they started starring in huge numbers. this is understandable since Joe was a national hero and they were no longer being told by the press that they were no good. Common sense says that this is when the young coloured fighters started taking up the game in large numbers. Any way, i dont want to derail the thread. Do you still agree that the the names i have are about correct. I am hoping once i delve into this there will be lots of common opponents and even actual matches, so that we get a pretty good gauge on whether one side was better than the other during this era. During the Johnson era, for example, it seems as clear as day that the top 4 coloured fighters beat the white counterparts. That doesnt seem the case to me. IN fact, possibly the opposite.
Good post B. I am not familiar with Lawson, have to read up on him. Its true Johnson embarrassed Firpo when he was brought in to try and give him some experience of a good defensive fighter, but making a ****** out of a younger, rawer fighter in training is vastly different to duplicating it in an actual fight. The probability is that the younger, stronger Firpo would gradually have worn Jack down,as he did Willard. When you are of a certain age, not only your power erodes ,your ability to sustain that power is considerably curtailed. I found that out myself around 12 years ago .
Any further thoughts on this from anyone? Pretty interesting that Mendoza has Jack Johnson winning the decisive fight giving his team a 4-3 victory.
