Whitey Wenzel - the poor guy who had to fight Harry Greb 10 times. Greb's prototype?

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Inside his first year as a pro, Greb began his series with Whitey Wenzel, the poor guy who would match Harry more than any other fighter - they were to meet 10 times in all. The fights became more and more popular with fans with more than a thousand eventually coming to see the two duke it out. Wenzel was a journeyman. His ring record stands at an underwhelming 25-23-11. As well as his efforts against Greb (1-7-2 - though he may have been unlucky not to get a nod in the case of one of these draws) he would lose to Gene Tunney (one of only four men to KO Wenzel) and he holds a newspaper decision over George Chip

So Whitey was no world beate, but he could fight, and he was Greb's schoomaster, bringing him on through the early days of his boxing career. Greb's progress can be measured by his increasing returns versus Whitey (all newspaper decisions). The first three duels, all over 6 rounds, are close, two wins for Harry (the second one seemingly debateable with at least one newspaper picking Whitey to win) and a draw. The fourth seems to have been a draw which should have gone to Whitey with Greb forced to fight for his life in the final round with the Pittsburgh Post noting that, "if a hairline decision was absolutley neccessary then Wenzel would get it."

But by 1916, when the two fought over the longer distance of 10 rounds, Greb was utterly crushing his foe. Wenzel was given only one of the ten rounds, and was so soundly beaten that he would not return to the ring for over a year - Greb's "clever footwork" was credited as the difference between the two, and although not completely primed, Greb was but 6 months away from his savage best, and there are signs that his "in out" style of attack was ready to be tested against better foes.

Wenzel's style seems to have been crude, "Wenzel doesn't claim to be scientifice", said the Pittsburgh Press, "He of course has become adept at the ins and out of sparring, but assimilation of punishment and his ability to hand out the same with interest are his long suits. He won't lay down...but keeps wading in, swinging and stabbing. He hits heavily."

So crude but formidable, it must have been quite the learning curve for young Greb. Anyway, here is another passage hinting at Whitey's style. It is from the Pittsburgh Post and it concerns his March, 1915 fight with Greb, a loss. What is fascinating about these lines is, they seem to hint at Greb's adopting of Wenzel's style.

"Wenzel did little scoring himself, but most of his punching lay with jabs, occasional straight lefts to the head and face and uppercuts, only a few of which landed. He also did a little work inside...There is no doubting the fact that Greb's terrific swings to the stomach as he rushed in sapped a goodly part of Wenzel's speed and stamina...Strange to say the least. Wenzel was beaten by an opponent who employed exactly the same methods used by Whitey in all his previous bouts. The...hook to the body accompanied by the additional momentum of speedy rush has always been one of Wenzel's best assets. Forced to combat the same style, he was unable to utilise it himself."


Of course, it's hard to be 100% sure about what's happening here - perhaps Greb is just apeing Wenzel specifically to counter his style, but body punching combined with sudden rushes and unorthodoxed leads sounds very much like Greb...here it is credited as a style belonging to Whitey! Greb's style, though absolutley unique, wasn't rootless...could this be it's beginnings?

Obviously Greb hadn't perfected things yet, and as diminishing returns for Whitey show, Greb would get much better than this, but I do wonder if Whitey shouldn't be credited for helping to define Greb's style and for inspiring him in a certain direction. After all, this was Greb's great rivalry in the early part of his career, and a problem that most definitely would need solving were he to remain unmarked and carry on up the rankings.

What do you guys think? Might Whitey have been the most significant influence upon Greb's fighting career?

Does anyone know any more details about Whitey, or perhaps have reads on him that describe his style in more detail?

How about Fey Keiser? Here's another guy Greb duelled with many times early on in his career, could he have been a secondary influence?

 

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I suppose I can't object to you hijacking THIS thread.

Yeah, they are real. Taken to America by Russians who orignally cultivated it in Australia No ****.

 

I really, really think he did.

Here's a link documenting the tumbleweed's Russian/Australian roots.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/k2/trek/4wd/Over69.htm

 

Jesus. The thread has fallen.

Here's Whitey's homepage, which was a surprise to find:

http://www.harrygreb.com/whiteywenzelbio.html

Part of the Harry Greb website.

 

Thanks Drew.