Who are the top ten heavyweights who never received a lineal title shot?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Mendoza, Jan 14, 2014.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Right, but what set of circumstances from the past would greet the crowning of a new king?
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    #61
  2. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    A new line has only been created when the public has brought into a fight that is 'spun' as being between the top two fighters.
     
    TBooze, Jul 1, 2014
    TBooze, Jul 1, 2014
    #62
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    All due respect, but that's shite. New Kingship is decided when a promoter can "spin" the fight so that the public believes (presumably you mean by majority because you're not going to get universal agreement - or "opinion") that they are watching a fight between the top two?

    Whether they are or not?

    What about at light-flyweight where the situation you describe would just never ever happen? Or would happen more rarely?

    What happens when "the public" who is spun, is Japanese and nobody in the west really gives a ****, then the western promoters "spin" a lineage for the same weight division at the same time?

    What happens when a fight is "spun" to be between the #1 and #2 when it is nothing of the sort?

    What happens when a very famous well loved fighter is the #3 and it is particularly easy to "spin" that fight?

    Finally, you haven't "eliminated opinion" from the equation at all, you've just provided the perfect platform for its perversion. The opinions that matter are the people dong the spinning, the people being spun, the people being "drawn in" and the people doing the drawing.

    Nah, if these are the things you think you've inherited from boxing's past (and this is infinitely debatable anyway) you're welcome to them.

    No, no and no.
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    #63
  4. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    what you are talking about is when does opinion become fact? We know in law a jury can decide such, and we as the fancy, are boxing's jury.

    Heavyweight is easy, it is always has been the most popular division in boxing and opinions are such your concerns about fights being 'spun' on the public are generally without foundation.

    But rightly you point to other divisions, and again rightly you show flaws in the system. But that is lineage, it is black and white, there is no grey. Brilliant to a degree, but as you have shown, perhaps ultimately too flawed.

    I used to be a 'lineage disciple', but in recent years have come around to nearer your way of thinking on the subject. So now I take lineage as another 'title' in boxing. In context it can be very important, but also it can be ridiculous. That Wlad does not hold the crown perhaps shows in this instance, it should be ridiculed.
     
    TBooze, Jul 1, 2014
    TBooze, Jul 1, 2014
    #64
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I agree, kind of, but this is directly contradicted by your statement just several posts ago:

    So which is it? Is it the opinion of "jury" as directed by the "spin" or is it a regal ordainment which "takes opinion out of the equation"? Because it very obviously cannot be both.

    I'm not concerned about it all, because I don't believe it, but you are:

    Do you not mean "spun" when you say "spun"?

    But he does hold it, and is almost universally regarded as holding it. Saying that he does not hold it is a valid opinion but one that puts you in a tiny minority.
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    #65
  6. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    How can he hold it? He does not reach the criteria that we both agree is needed: that of having a fight as his main rival in the rankings.
     
    TBooze, Jul 1, 2014
    TBooze, Jul 1, 2014
    #66
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Your criteria and my criteria are totally different. Your criteria states that Wladimir has to have some sort of rival, some sort of media-spun creation, whether accurate or not, that meets with some (unidentified) level of public approval.

    My criteria calls for the #1 contender in any division, to meet the #2 contender in any division as described by a detailed, publicly available criteria.

    Yours is speculative, odd and I believe almost unique to yourself.

    Mine honours a century of tradition with certain improvements.

    Finally, whether you agree or not (and disagreeing is fine - inevitable with your criteria), you are inarguably within a tiny minority. The TBRB's biggest problem has been overturning the notion that Wladimir wasn't already lineal Champion (Chagaev). The notion that he is still not the the Champion is, in my enormous experience of dealing with these issues, absolutely unique to you.
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2014
    #67
  8. Tonifranz

    Tonifranz Active Member Full Member

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    Anyway, Pulev is no. 2, so come September 6, all doubts will be erased about Wlad's being king!
     
    Tonifranz, Jul 1, 2014
    Tonifranz, Jul 1, 2014
    #68
  9. Hookie

    Hookie Affeldt... Referee, Judge, and Timekeeper Full Member

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    Some of the better Heavyweights who never got a shot at the "Lineal" HW World Title. I'm going to take a little different approach.

    Sure... Wills, Langford, McVea, Jeanette, Bivins, and even Eddie Machen (he got a shot at the WBA title only) deserve a mention. What about-

    Ray Mercer- he was WBO champ but never fought for the Lineal title

    Tommy Morrison- he was also WBO champ

    Oliver McCall- he was WBC champ but never fought for the Lineal title

    Pinklon Thomas- he was WBC champ and fought for the WBC and WBA belts as a challenger but never for the Lineal title.

    Razor Ruddock- had big time fights with Tyson x2, Lewis, and other.
     
    Hookie, Jul 1, 2014
    Hookie, Jul 1, 2014
    #69
  10. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    SuzieQ49, Jul 1, 2014
    SuzieQ49, Jul 1, 2014
    #70
  11. Surf-Bat

    Surf-Bat Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Lem Franklin was going to get a title shot in September 1942. The plan was for him to beat Bob Pastor, which most expected him to do, and then face Louis.

    Oops.

    What occurred was something of a heavyweight version of Nigel Benn vs. Michael Watson.
     
    Surf-Bat, Jul 1, 2014
    Surf-Bat, Jul 1, 2014
    #71
  12. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Interesting debate between TBooze and McGrain. On acceptability criteria as a linear title fight the second Maher-Fitz fight is interesting. Corbett abdicated and retired, tried to set up Steve O'Donnell as his successor. Maher queered this pitch by flattening O'Donnell whereupon Corbett declared Peter the new champion. Not many bought into this as Fitz has spent months chasing a fight with Corbett and held a win over Maher.
    They were generally accepted as the top two contenders and their fight in Mexico was billed and quite widely accepted as a title fight. Corbett then un-retired, reclaimed the championship and history has written out the Langtry cameo.
     
    mattdonnellon, Jul 2, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jul 2, 2014
    #72
  13. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    By making the 'improvements', as I suggested all the way through our discussion is where you have gone wrong. Linear is linear, as there is no legislature, there is no scope for change.

    To be honest I do not know what this TBRB is. And as pointed earlier on, I do not agree with lineage as a way of creating champions. For me the way forward is to have a 'generally recognized' champion. And as Vitali has now called it a day, Wlad has earned that accolade.
     
    TBooze, Jul 2, 2014
    TBooze, Jul 2, 2014
    #73
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    But we've already seen that your take on what is "linear" is different from almost the entire boxing community? I mean what you are recognising as linear is recognised by almost no other human being. At best you are recognising such archaic rules that someone like me is not even aware of them, and if i'm frank, I really do doubt that.

    I think even dinovelvet has Wlad as linear. If so, you are literally alone on the forum to the best of my knowledge.
     
    McGrain, Jul 2, 2014
    McGrain, Jul 2, 2014
    #74
  15. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Although I would be a little disturbed if that were the case, I doubt it is. Whilst respecting and recognizing boxing tradition, not trying to rewrite it, I am comfortable that I am very progressive as a long term fan of this sport.

    My 'philosophy' is thus:

    Wlad Klitschko is the generally recognized Heavyweight Champion of the World. Still the single biggest title an individual can win in sports. That he does not hold linear, I suspect means little to nothing to him.
     
    TBooze, Jul 2, 2014
    TBooze, Jul 2, 2014
    #75
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