who are your three top hw of all time

1. Prime Mike Tyson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Sonny Liston

Honourable mentions: David Tua

 

In chronological order:
Toledo Dempsey
Ali of Cleveland Williams
Holmes of Shavers I and Cobb

Louis of Max Baer and Godoy II, and Frazier of 1969, 1970 and 1971, round out my top five. H2H though, I think Tunney beats Louis. I have enormous respect for Gene, who I believe was still improving when he stopped Heeney.

 

:shock::shock::shock::shock:

 

Gene would definitely uncover the same susceptibility to the counter right which Schmeling discerned (and probably did). Any other flaws he could uncover and exploit, he would. He could move as necessary for 15 rounds. Tunney didn't jab one at a time, but in threes and fours. His jab would be glued to Joe's face whenever they were in punching range. He had a first rate chin, and he was still getting bigger and stronger when he took apart Heeney. (Gene brutalized Tom on the inside in that one, especially with his hook. He'd become a compete fighter.)

If he did get hurt, he showed with Dempsey that he didn't freeze like a deer in the headlights the way so many of Joe's victims did. Louis never had the foot speed necessary to chase Gene down as he'd need to for finishing the kill. (Furthermore, Joe was not an infallible finisher, as Galento and Pastor demonstrated when they challenged him. Bob got up from multiple knockdowns in rounds one and two to mount a serious rally, and Tony avenged his knockdown. Neither is remotely in Tunney's class.)

Finally, Gene's style was predicated on winning by out boxing his man for points verdicts. This isn't a "thick" Billy Conn type Irishman we're talking about here, but the first man to win the heavyweight title by outscoring the champion, and very possibly the most intelligent man to ever hold it. (Even after flooring Dempsey in their rematch, he did not go for the kill.) Dempsey hammered his body, even hitting him low several times (and according to Tunney, apologizing when he did so), and never came close to slowing Gene down.

Tunney was the most fearless and anti superstitious champion in athletic history. (The man flew to Philadelphia the day he won the title, not the safest mode of travel in 1926. Like rival Loughran, he had ice water in his veins, and didn't even look like he could sweat.) Joe beat some opponents with reputational intimidation before they ever stepped foot in the ring. Not ever in this case.

Ultimately, the final bell would ring, and Louis would find himself having run out of time in which to catch Gene. Tunney had to be chased down, the way a peak Frazier and peak Dempsey would have done it, and out hustled over the distance, or stunned repeatedly until there was no choice but to stop it (as I believe the Dempsey of Toledo could have done). That was not a style Louis used in his entire career.

Gene was faster, smarter, and had the size, strength, toughness, durability, stamina and patience to finish the job Conn started in 1941. (I actually don't hold Louis-Conn I against Joe too much, because he did compromise himself by foolishly listening to the sportswriters who advised him to come in light for speed, thus weakening him and diluting his punch resistance. It's more troubling to me that Pastor and Walcott gave him headaches with some similar tactics over the span of a decade. I think the notion he was in decline may be oversold a bit, considering the fact that he himself said he felt fine for Mauriello. I believe the older Walcott had considerably more to do with the problems Louis experienced in their two bouts. If Jersey Joe's 33 year old legs could keep him away from Louis for 15 rounds, then the 30 year old legs the late blooming Gene used against Heeney could certainly finish the job.)

Some of my very first posts on ESB dealt with the question of what would have happened if Gene had been wiped out in the 1929 crash the way rival Dempsey was, and found it necessary to continue as champion as long as he could have. (That the crash did not even effect Tunney should offer some idea of how astute and intelligent this man was.) My hypothesis was that, by continuing to defend his title once a year, combined with his maniacal discipline, dedication and intelligence, he would have retained the heavyweight title until Louis challenged him, then force Joe to have to go the distance to wrest it away. I believe the man was a heavyweight Britton, fully capable of performing at a high level until a very ripe old age.

Take a look at the jab fest Farr had with Louis. That's a contest Joe could never win with Gene, and Tunney may well have imposed his brand of ring generalship on such a match.

 

If the man was so fearless, then why did he draw the color line? He ducked George Godfrey. He would have ducked joe louis too had he been around during the era. Tunney is very unproven at heavyweight. Had he stuck around and took on sharkey, schmeling, godfrey...it would have told us a lot more about him.

Gene Tunney had a serious flaw that Joe Louis would have capitlized on. Low Hands. Gene Tunney loved to keep his hands by his waist. A deadly flaw to be used against the greatest puncher of all time. The only combination Tunney ever saw from a heavyweight, was the one Jack Dempsey threw when he trapped gene on the ropes. It was because of Gene's low hands that jack landed his combination. Gene always had this flaw, and louis at some point in the fight would have taken advantage of it. Tunney never fought a heavyweight who was TALLER than he. He never fought a heavyweight who could Jab with him. He never fought a heavyweight with the handspeed and power of Joe Louis. He never faced a heavyweight who through combinations like Joe Louis. Tunney's whole style was built to fight opponents smaller than him, where he can use his long reach and height to outbox opponents from a distance. This wouldn't work against a highly skilled tall powerful stalker like Joe Louis. Gene was not a good inside fighter. He only knew how to clinch on the inside . I can imagine Louis landing some devastating punches on the inside really shaking gene up, making him run some more. Louis at his best was not slow. He could slide in and out of range beautifully. He would trap gene at some point and finish him off. I have serious questions on Gene's ability to take a heavyweight punch. The one heavyweight puncher he took on, a past his prime jack dempsey, floored him for 14 seconds. You make one mistake against Joe Louis, your finished. Gene would.

As for the Billy Conn comparison. I think Conn was at least as good if not better than Gene Tunney. Difference is Conn knew how to fight with a high gaurd, Gene did not.

I don't think thats fair to say this. Tunney was down for 14 seconds against Dempsey. He got 5-6 extra seconds to recover. We don't know if Tunney would have gotten up at 10 or not. Even if he did, his head would have been groggy and we don't know if he could have survived Dempsey or not. Difference between a prime Joe Louis and a 1927 Jack Dempsey is astronomical. Joe Louis will finish Gene when he hurts him.

 

Louis
Dempsey
Foreman

 

Dempsey signed on to defend against Wills in a photographed ceremony, and the politics of the day prevented it from happening. At some point, I'd like the true blame for the color line to be laid at the feet of the man most responsible for it-Jack Johnson. (If a man like Peter Jackson had preceded Johnson to universal recognition, maybe Wills and Langford would have gotten the chances they deserved.) Sharkey had his shot to challenge Gene, and blew it by drawing with Heeney. Tunney defended against the opponent who did not previously get knocked out by Dempsey.

Whether or not he was a bigot, Tunney was also an astute businessman, who went where the money was. Could Godfrey have gotten him the million dollar payday the rematch with Dempsey garnered, or a two million dollar gate with an audience of over 100,000?

Martin Burke was a well credentialed amateur (1918 AAU Heavyweight Champion) and very competent professional who stood 6'3." Gene decisioned Burke over ten rounds in 1921, and 15 rounds in early 1924. Burke was no kind of bum. He got the better of Fulton twice, beat Gains, and went the limit twice with Godfrey. In 1920, he got the best of Meehan over 15 rounds. Tunney frustrated the slightly larger Erminio Spalla into bloody submission during 1924. Jimmy Delaney was over 6'1," very useful, and Gene took his measure twice. While they may not exist on film, the fact is that Tunney did have experience dealing with this situation.

An aging and smaller Loughran had remarkable success boxing with a low guard after Tunney walked away, and Tommy beat three IBHOF heavyweight champions with greater height and reach than himself. Loughran is a relatively suitable stand in for Tunney, and I think a reasonable extrapolation of how Gene could have dealt with taller opposition. However, for what it's worth, Dempsey actually was taller than Gene, and with a slightly longer reach. Like Jack, Louis would have been the one crouching here. He was two inches taller than Tunney, but with an inch less of reach. The size differential is negligible here.

When Dempsey floored him, the sequence began with a slip of a jab and counter right to Tunney's temple in mid ring, delivered from the other side of Gene's extended left. Tunney retreated to the ropes, where Jack caught him flush with a hook as he ricocheted off, and that was probably the true knockdown punch, with the follow up combination punches all grazing him as he went down.

Again, Loughran became a heavyweight who could jab with any opponent in the division until he began to fade. As good as Joe's jab was, I'll take Loughran's over it any day of the week. Tommy Gibbons and Battling Levinski did not suck in this department either.

By the time he unseated Dempsey, he'd dealt with the speed of Carpentier and Greb. While Louis was exceptionally fast, he wasn't in that league. As for power, Sharkey did claim that Dempsey's was superior. Sour grapes? Perhaps. But the fact remains that he was the only person to get hit by both in competition, and it was Dempsey who laid out Galento while sparring in a way that Louis and the Baer brothers failed to do.

No heavyweight ever threw combinations like Louis, which is what makes him a greater puncher than harder hitters like Marciano, Max Baer and Shavers. But Joe did not face anybody who jabbed quite like Gene either.

On the radio, Graham MacNamee described Tunney as "out Dempseying Dempsey." But as Joe preferred not to fight on the inside when given the option, this one would be likely to happen at range. Again, Gene would be the one boxing tall here, while Joe would be more flatfooted and crouching slightly.

He wasn't slow, but as soon as he came within punching distance, Tunney's jab would be there to meet him.

If Walcott, Godoy and Farr could go 15 rounds at various stages of Joe's career, then Tunney certainly could manage it. Again, Pastor and Galento proved that Louis was not an infallible finisher, and Tunney did get up when Dempsey nailed him where Sharkey didn't.

Gene was still increasing in size and strength (thus punch resistance) when he battered Heeney, and was bigger and tougher, much closer to Joe's size. Conn himself would probably admit that Tunney was smarter than he.

In scrutinizing the footage, I'm satisfied that he could have gotten up about as fast as Ali did in the FOTC, or Holmes did against Shavers. He would have survived as they did. What's impressive to me is that he had the presence of mind to take advantage of a full count in an alien situation, so he could not have been that groggy. Also, he doesn't roll over to a knee the way Ali did with Frazier, but rises up from his haunches, after observing that his "legs felt strong and springy." (Blackburn always criticized Louis for not doing this whenever he got dropped.) The way Tunney gets to his feet would be an unlikely method for somebody seriously hindered. (Obviously the effects of getting hit did not linger at all, as Gene proved by avenging that knockdown in the very following round.)

 

Ali
Lewis
Holmes

(maybe Louis in third though)

 

That's mine... though sometimes I put Holmes in 3. Not lately, though.

 

...I thought even the really old timers had come to terms with the fact that Muhammad Ali HAS to be in a top 3.

Muhammad Ali
Joe Louis
Larry Holmes.

 

Clay/Ali
Jose Louis
Larry Holmes

 

I enjoyed your post on Gene Tunney...It was factual intuitive...Tunney when he retired in 1928 hadn't yet hit his peak...Who knows how greater he could have been, had he not married Polly Lauder, a very wealthy woman ? As comparing Louis and Tunney, your analogy with Bob Pastor, a smaller and less talented edition of Tunney ,holds true....If Bob Pastor gave Louis so much trouble for Louis in their two bouts, shouldn't have the bigger better Tunney possibly whipped Louis ?Tunney could do everything that Bob Pastor did and was a punishing puncher too..
When comparing fighters as Dempsey, Louis, Tunney, I like to take them in their absolute primes...After all we are asking who would have beaten,each other, and not who had the better record...
I think the prime Dempsey was at Toledo...
The prime Tunney was with his last fight with Tom Heeney...
With Joe Louis his prime was against the crude but granite jaw Max Baer in
1935...I think that the Louis who destroyed Baer in 1935 , who have kod the Billy Conn of 1941 in a few rounds...
I believe Gene Tunney was as good a boxer as Ali, without the glitz...All Tunney's moves had a purpose, while Ali showboated for the audiences, wasting energy he would later in a fight need, thus the need for the rope-a-dope..Just ponder what would have occured if Ali tried the rope-a-dope
against the ropes with a young Joe Louis...Murder I suspect....

 

I agree with the consensus that Louis and Ali are the top two in whichever order you preffer.

I think that Jack Johnson takes the No3 slot based on depth of resume.

 

I second this, with the exception of Lewis. I just think those two KO's keep him out of this elite tier.

Ali
Louis
Johnson/Marciano/Holmes take your pick. I think Marciano might be able to get Holmes with that right hand, Holmes would beat Johnson, and Johnson would frustrate Marciano with his strength and defense.