Who beat better competition..Harry Wills or Jack Dempsey?

this is an excellent question suzy.

Looking at their records, which pretty much can start at about 1918 (and if you look at Dempsey's 1918, it is absolutely sensational, maybe the best year of anyone ever (though others have claims obviously). I am starting to see the class of Dempsey, who has always been the hardest of any heavyweight champion ever to classify for mine. At the moment, I must say, it seems that the bienstock view is a lot closer to the truth than the gooftrooper view, that is for sure.

Still, i have laid out their main wins/common opponents during this time period. I would be interested for others to do a comparison on these. At first glance, i must say that i would be leaning towards Dempsey at the moment, but i am open for anyone to pursuade otherwise.


Langford Gunboat Smith
Clark Morris
McVey Homer Smith
Thompson Flynn
JL Johnson Brenna
Clarke Miske
Jeanette Pelkey
Fulton Devere
Tate Dan Flynn
Norfolk Fulton
Clark Willard
Homer Smith Brennan

Madden Carpentier
Firpo Darcy
Weinert Gibbons
Thompson Firpo
Sharkey Sharkey


Incidentally, In compiling the above list, i just noticed that CBZ has listed a Dempsey/JL Johnson 4 round exhibition. without checking, i dont think this is the fight where Johnson broke his ribs. Does anyone have any news reports on this exhibition. It would be very interesting to see how this went down.

 

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Proces...=C:\inetpub\wwwroot\Fulton_New_form.html&.pdf

http://www.fultonhistory.com/Newspa...=C:\inetpub\wwwroot\Fulton_New_form.html&.pdf

I am answering my own question here, but it seems that while the fight was an exhibition, Dempsey certainly seemed to get the better of JL Johnson. I think that this is very interesting especially considering some have previously tried to make a lot out of the fact that Dempsey had is ribs broken by the best black fighter he fought.

The reality is that Dempsey clearly must have been handling the likes of Johnson and Tate in sparring quite easily. There was a time when each of these was touted as the best coloured fighter in the world. Obviously Wills and Norforlk even were both probably better than both of these guys, but it is clear that they were in similar classes of each other. The more i think of the Wills Dempsey issue, the more i think that Dempsey was quite a bit better than Wills.

 

Wills, clearly.

 

I guess the first comparison is with the four common oppoonents.

Starting with Fulton, Fulton was in good form before both fights, but you would have to think that the Dempsey fight where he was undefeated and in line for a shot at Willard, who he had already edged (from memory) in a 4 rounder had higher stakes and a better version of Fulton. Technically, Dempsey's KO 1 was better than Wills' KO3, also. You would also think that the Dempsey win had taken a bit of Fultons aura of invincibility and confidence also. Advantage Dempsey.

Firpo, is next up. It is hard to see how or why Firpo would have improved after getting KOd by Dempsey. He had to be in better shape against Dempsey. It was a huge fight for both fighters, probably Wills' biggest drawing and paying fight. A massive stage for Wills (moreso than Dempsey) yet Dempsey KO2 (despite being dropped) has to be an awful lot better than Wills' No Decision fight with Firpo, even though technically most thought that Wills did enough to beat Firpo. Dempsey was a class above Wills. Wills was better than Firpo also but his win was nowhere near as impressive as Dempsey. Advantage Dempsey, again.

Sharkey is the next one to consider. Both fighters were getting on by the time they fought Sharkey. I am not sure which was the most gone. Wills had just come off a win over Firpo, weinert and Floyd Johnson, but was clearly slowing down. Dempsey on the other hand had just come off a loss to Tunney. So you would have to say that Dempsey looked further removed from prime. As for results, both were beaten early on. The difference is Dempsey worked his way back in to the fight and found a way to win. Wills fouled out. (of course some would say that Dempsey should have fouled out). You would also think that the Wills win elevated Sharkey's confidence, and he had improved by the time of the Dempsey fight. Ironically, it is Wills loss to Sharkey that almost certainly deprived us of the Dempsey Wills Elimination fight to see who fought Tunney. Advantage Dempsey.

Last fighter is Homer Smith. Dempsey fought a young Homer Smith, who had only previously been stopped by Homer Smith. and he followed it up with wins over Anderson, Kellar and Jack Twin Sullivan before his next KO Loss. By the time that Smith fought Wills, he had been relegated to complete Journeyman Status. Wills KO2 was impressive again and it tells us little because i think he beats smith at any time. But technically it took him an extra round to beat a far worse version of Homer Smith. Advantage Dempsey.

So far Dempsey has the clear advantage with regards to common opponents. Interestingly, in Sharkey, Fulton and possibly even (though maybe not) Firpo, this was Probably Wills' three best wins.

 

Starting with their other opponents, Flynn and Langford are probably the best starting point. Interestingly, both of these guys managed to Knock out both Dempsey and Wills. Langford did it on more than one occassion. And it wasnt until he started aging that Wills established superiority over Langford. Interestingly they met each other twice in their prime. Jim Flynn won the first fight on points, while langford won the rematch by Knock out. Neither was in anywhere near prime shape when they fought their opponents here, but Langford was still a major player and was definitely a better win than Flynn. If you take the late 1917 point as a cut off it is clear Langford was not the fighter he was but he was still very dangerous with some good wins ahead of him. Although to put things into perspective by the time Wills had finished with Langford, Langford was unable to better Andre Anderson. OLD Flynn and langford did actually meet quite a bit after the Wills and Dempsey fights. Langford won this series 2-1 but could only KO FLynn in one of the three fights. It might also be worth pointing out that Dempsey's win over Flynn was far more dominant than Wills over Langford. Advantage Wills. But not by as far as is usually thought.

Norfolk and Miske are next up. These guys had previously went the distance with each other, so it is quite clear that both were in a similar class to each other. In a no Decision fight, according to Boxrec, Norfolk got the edge, although it might be interesting to do a little bit of research. Wills was far more impressive in beating Norfolk than Dempsey was against Miske. And the condition of Miske is well known to most. Although it must be said that Miske's record after facing Dempsey seems quite a bit better the Norfolks. Not really relevant, but it is a little interesting that Norfolk would go on to lose to Dempsey victim Tommy Gibbons. Advantage Wills.

I will try to continue this later if i get the chance.

 

Dempsey was only ko'd once by fireman Jim Flynn in a sketchy fight that many believed to be fixed. Did I misunderstand your post? Langford never knocked out Jack....

 

Even though Langford, Jeanette and McVey were past their best when Wills fought them, they were still very dangerous, especially Langford. Wills destroyed Norfolk who was a terrific fighter as well .. I would lean to Wills for sure , always have ..

 

Yes. Langford Kod Wills and Flynn KOd Dempsey. They never fought the other.

 

Wills clearly beat all the dynamite crew multiple times including ATG Langford who were generally the best contenders from 1910-1917. Then also beat Dempsey's biggest scalps in Fulton and Firpo. Dempsey has Sharkey, Gibbons and Willard too but he doesn't have anything to rival a near prime Langford and I'm not sure those 3 are better than Jeanette/Mcvey or even Norfolk

 

You see this comparison is incredibly unfair. It's like comparing Holmes and Tyson's opposition faced and saying because Tyson beat the common opponents quicker because of his style and the complete same goes for Dempsey. Do you genuinely think that this gives Dempsey an advantage as it would with Tyson, because in my eyes looking at common opponents can lead to good evidence, but in this case I just dont see how it helps at all really.

 

Foreman destroyed Frazier twice.

Ali went 2-1 against Frazier and all three fights went the distance.

Ali struggled in three fights with Norton, winning two (with the third being a disputed and highly debated decision).

Foreman destroyed Norton.

So I give Foreman a big edge over Ali head-to-head.

 

I don't think the comparision between Langford and Flynn makes any sense.

1--Langford ko'd Flynn in 1 round in 1908. In 1910 they fought a close ND fight. According to boxrec, the ref was quoted as saying he would have given the fight to Flynn so boxrec considers it a Flynn win. Okay. But in a rematch on July 4, 1910, Langford ko'd Flynn in 8. The fight is on film and Sam dominates him. So the score was a close, disputed decision in a ND fight for Flynn, against two decisive ko victories for Langford. Hardly equal. And frankly, I don't know of anyone who considers Flynn in Langford's class.

2--Wills began fighting Langford in 1914 when Langford was much younger than the 38 and 39 year old Flynn Dempsey split with or for that matter the 37 year old Wills who lost to Sharkey. Langford might have been past his best but was still considered a top man in the 1914 to 1916 era. Wills was stopped twice late in fights he was winning up to then, as far as I can tell, but he won the others and was ahead in the series well before Langford lost to Fulton.

Bottom line--the Langford of 1914 to 1916 was certainly still an impressive scalp, much, much more so than the Flynn of 1918.

 

There are more than four common opponents between Dempsey and Wills

Charley Miller--was ko'd in one by both Wills and Dempsey. Even

Willie Meehan--was knocked down and beaten cleanly by Wills in 1914. Meehan gave the young Dempsey problems in five four-round fights, going 1-2-2. Edge Wills.

John Lester Johnson--Wills seems to have won a clean ND, while Dempsey fought a close fight with a split newspaper verdict. However, Wills was in his prime and a big heavy fighting a lightheavy, while Dempsey was a raw lightheavy fighting another lightheavy. I wouldn't draw any conclusions.

Gunboat Smith--Wills ko 1. Dempsey W 4 & ko 2. Dempsey had some trouble with Smith in 1917 when he was still coming up. He knocked him down 9 times in 2 rounds in 1918. Wills blew Smith out in 1 in 1921 when Smith was totally gone. No conclusion here.

Homer Smith--Well, Dempsey's 1 round ko over a young Homer might be considered slightly more impressive, there is nothing to choose as Wills blew him out in 2. Even.

Fred Fulton--Wills completely dominated Fulton, breaking three of his ribs and putting him down for the count in 3. I would judge the two men even against this opponent.

Luis Angel Firpo--Dempsey got him out in 2, but was down 2 (or off the film, 3 times) and knocked out of the ring. Tunney, who was at ringside, went on record saying Dempsey was given more than 10 seconds to get back into the ring. Wills seems to have completely dominated Firpo and had no real trouble with him, but didn't stop him, and the fight was considered dull by many. I think it important to point out that we are comparing a 28 year old Dempsey with a 35 year old Wills. Dempsey was not even fighting at that age.

Sharkey--this is the one opponent Dempsey clearly did better against. Jack was past his best, but was still only 32, the same age Wills reached in 1921. Wills had hit the wall at 37 and was beaten more decisively by Uzcudun in 1927.

Prior to the Sharkey fight, Wills went 7-0 with 4 ko's against common foes. Dempsey prior to Sharkey was 7-2-3 with 5 ko's. Hard to see Dempsey being superior, for what it is worth.

Adding Sharkey in, Wills went 7-1 with 4 kos. Dempsey 8-2-3 with 6 ko's.

Bottom line--these common opponents don't prove anything as Wills fought Firpo and Sharkey way past his best and Dempsey had his poor fights as a youngster. Both dominated in their primes. The freaky Meehan might be the one exception.

 

The short answer, would be that Wills had more depth to his resume, but Dempsey beat top fighters in a more dominant manner.