Who beat better competition? Lewis or Holmes?

Muhammad Ali

 

Go on then.

 

Muhammad Ali
Evander Holyfield
Rocky Marciano (gonna get **** for this one)
George Foreman
Jack Johnson (though some say langford wasnt in his prime yet)
Sonny Liston
Ezzard Charles (not exactly all at heavyweight though)
You can make an argument that Patterson's and Fitzsimmon's is better

All beat better competition imo

Lewis' best wins are to a past prime holyfield that he tied with in the first fight, a shot, on cocaine tyson, and an accidental win against Vitali. Oh and a robbery from Ray Mercer.

Holmes' best wins are to a shot Parkinson's Ali, a war with Norton (who, to be fair, stylistically ****ed with pure boxers), and 2 actually really good wins against Earnie Shavers.

I didnt mean to call their resume average, that was an overstatement on my part. As I said, they have good names, and some amount of dominance.

 

Aside from Ali and Holyfield I disagree with every single one of those picks. Who the hell did Liston beat to put him over Lewis? Ditto for Johnson. Foreman has Frazier, Norton and Moorer. Two good wins and one lucky one (according to your standards). Very little depth otherwise.

Marciano's resume is little with small old men past their best. What's your justification for criticising Lewis for beating past prime fighters when Marciano did exactly the same?

 

Liston: prime Patterson twice in a complete slaughter, prime Cleveland Williams, prime Zora Folley, and TKO'ing Wepner when Liston himself was shot.

Johnson: Prime Sam Langford, Sam McVea, Joe Jeannette, past prime bob fitzsimmons, past prime james jeffries, Stanley Ketchel, Tommy Burns, etc

That makes Foreman's resume better, and what part of that win was luck? Foreman landed a 1-2 that knocked Moorer out. Lewis got a cut that didnt even bother Vitali. Dont forget to add Ron Lyle and George Chuvalo to that list

Marciano's average opponent was 6'1" 194lbs, compared to Marciano 5'11" 185lbs if you wanna make the size argument. Marciano was smaller than every man he defended his title against, minus LaStarza and Moore, who were both the same weight as him. About age

Marciano's average opponent was 29.8 years old, he fought the young contenders of his division like LaStarza, Rex Layne, etc. Ezzard Charles was 32 and in his prime in the first fight, many call it Charles' greatest performance. and his camp said he looked as sharp as ever. Walcott aged like fine wine, only getting better with age, and hit like a mule. Built like an ox too. Despite that, Marciano has the most dominant streak over his opponents possibly in heavyweight history (Sullivan could be in this discussion). Moore was only a little past prime, and was knocking out 200+lbs heavyweight contenders, and would reign as LHW champ for 7 more years.

So lets recap:

Marciano: Prime Rex Layne, Prime Ezzard Charles, Prime Jersey Joe Walcott, Past Prime Joe Louis, past prime archie moore, Roland LaStarza, etc

 

Lewis: prime Vitali, Tua, Morrison, Bruno, Briggs, Mercer, Mason, Ruddock, Grant, Golota, Rahman, past prime Tyson, Holyfield, Tucker, Biggs and Weaver.

Foreman's win was lucky in the same way that Lewis's win was lucky. Lewish punched Vitali in the face and opened up a cut. He then continued to punch him in the face till the cut worsened to the point that the doctors had to step in and stop the contest.

In case you're wondering, I consider neither win lucky.

Even taking into account the H2H argument (in which case Lewis's opposition trumps Marciano's) there's nothing there that puts Rock head and shoulders over Lennox or Holmes IMO. Rocky also has a shorter run at the top than Lewis and accumulated fewer top flight wins as a result.

You could maybe argue that he accomplished a similar magnitude of wins in his own time as Lewis did in his, but even then it's not a cut and dry argument.

 

Lucky win against Vitali (though can be argued to not be), shot Morrison, robbery from Mercer, lost to Rahman (avenged but Rahman isn't an ATG by any means), shot cocaine Tyson, past prime Holyfield.

Everyone else on that list isn't worth mentioning, minus Ruddock and Tua, both good wins.

But then again, Marciano's short run at the top (not mentioning the warpath Marciano went on from 48-51 where he fought 38 times in 3 years, some of which was quality opposition like LaStarza, Layne, Matthews, Vingo, Eddie Ross, etc).

Imo, Prime Walcott and Charles are better wins than anything Lewis has on his resume

 

Ali, yes.

The rest, no.

Langford was a welterweight when Johnson beat him.

Marciani is a real laugher. And did I see someone write the words Prime Rex Layne? Those 3 words together are an absurdity.

 

Holyfield was past prime for Lewis,but Walcott,Louis,Charles, and Moore were bang in their primes for Marciano?

 

Langford and Johnson did not weigh in, but Sam is believed to have been in the region of156/158lbs
Your post is otherwise correct.

 

Wow, novice Vingo and Eddie Ross!
Ross was a middleweight who jumped up to175lbs to fight Marciano.Lol

 

Walcott and Charles were prime? Well **** me I never knew that!

 

The Norton that fought Larry Holmes had more in the tank than the Holyfield that fought Lennox Lewis.

 

Clay against Liston isn't really a good example. Neither is Marciano vs Walcott for that matter.

A better example would be Charles beating Marciano in their rematch on account of the fight being stopped for cuts in between the 7th and 8th round. It would be totally legit, but very unsatisfying.

 

Lewis has the slightly better competition, in my view. However, Holmes ranks slightly above Lewis as an ATG (both are TOP 5 ATG in my book). Holmes was not lost twice by KO and fought very well over 40 years age (against Mercer, Holyfield and Mc Call)