Who beat better opposition Dempsey or Wills?

I don't blame Wills for maybe taking it easy in some of his series of fights with both Sam's they probably felt they didn't owe the white public anything being as they were excluded from a title shot. I still feel some of those fights were of the," let's take it easy tonight ," variety. They may may well have not been on their own in this,for example ,were all the Lewis v Britton fights on the square ? I've no idea, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few were not tacit ,"non aggression pacts."

 

This is the point I'm trying to make. Perhaps Harry needs a closer examination of his own record.

 

Found another one:

When Dempsey rematched Flynn and knocked him out near Chicago the press was quick to point out that Flynn was being handled by Jack Curley (who essentially established the modern ballyhoo fake pro wrestling btw). Curley had acted on and off as a partner to Kearns in boxing matters and it was believed by the press that Flynn was brought in to lose, wipe away the stain of Dempsey's KO loss to him, and further Dempsey's march toward Willard. They noted that Flynn was so decrepit that he actually entered the ring wearing makeup to make him look younger and at one point one of his handlers accidently wiped it off with a towel and had to reapply it. I would say again, anyone trying to defend Dempsey by attacking Wills for fake fights is barking up the wrong tree and opening their hero up to a lot of return fire.

 

Yes but was Flynn's purse withheld and were they barred from ever fighting in the state again? That report reads like some gossip rag.
Wills needs closer examination of his bouts. Dempsey has already been well examined.

 

Go to it sherlock. Prove to me conclusively that any of Wills' bouts were fixed. Even being barred proves nothing more than the fans may not have gotten their moneys worth or the commission didnt want blacks headlining a card. Like I said, if thats proof of a fix then Tunney has more skeletons in his closet than I initially thought. As for Dempsey, well, you dont have to tell me that a guy knocking over his sparring partners and stablemates under assumed names isnt fighting real fights.

 

Well all of this is very hard to prove that is the point. As I said more action was taken against Wills in his fights than against Dempsey. The reason for that is open to debate not the fact that it occurred.
Dempsey has had his resume scrutinized far more than Wills has had his is the point. Perhaps Wills should be looked at under the microscope and more in depth. He certaintly had more action taken against some of his fight results than Dempsey.

 

I'll long said that the Flynn rematch is suspicious. :good
I also consider that there might be some truth behind the rumours surrounding the first fight (something you seem to incessantly dismiss). :good

True, if they exist here.

I'd say Wills' possibly fake fights, and mismatches, are relevant, not to "defend Dempsey" but to accurate assess the status and historical credentials of Wills.

Certainly Wills was #1 contender for much of Dempsey's reign, and deserved a shot at the title. Certainly he fought more often than Dempsey did during that period. Certainly he fought some big name opponents that the public came out by the thousands to see.
But he's just as open to examination as any other #1 contender in history.

 

This sounds like the original opponent did not turn up so they brought in the sparring partner.

 

The original opponent who was going around the countryside fighting under assumed names getting knocked out for the highest bidder...

The sparring partner who fought under an assumed name to hide the fact that he was a sparring partner from the public and the promoter...

Sounds like someone wants to believe what they want to believe.

 

Carnera kod his sparring partners,Seal Harris and Neal Clisby a few times on his tour.Stribling did too, its hardly unique.Jeffries fought his,[Tom Kennedy].
I don't think Dempsey needed splash jobs once he teamed up with a real manager and left the likes of John Reisler behind.

 

Did Harris, Clisby, and Kennedy fight under assumed names to hide their identity as a stablemate/sparring partner from the world?

 

No but Harris and Clisby weren't known or advertised as part of Carnera's entourage.Dempsey ko's a ringer because his original opponent fails to turn up ?Reprehensible but did Dempsey really need fake fights with opponents ready to dive ?
He hit like a train.
At the risk of disturbing the status quo Marciano boxed exhibitions with his brother who used an assumed name, anyone on here want to crucify him?

 

No, I just misunderstood.
It completely passed me by that Fred Saddy had fought under (or planned to fight under) an assumed name too.

:good

Here's a good article on it :

[url]http://www.boxing.com/real_fight_or_just_bull.html[/url]

 

"more action was taken against Wills in his fights than against Dempsey"

One question I would ask about this--

Dempsey had the vast majority of his fights prior to 1920.

Wills was much more active than Dempsey from 1920 on and had far more official fights after that date.

How many State Athletic Commissions or Boxing Commissions were there prior to 1920 to take action?

The New York State Athletic Commission was established by the Walker Law of 1920 and the first main event under its supervision
was Dundee-Welling on September 17, 1920.

The NBA was established in 1921 as a reaction to the influence of the NYSAC.

This sort of inside politics is not exactly a fascinating subject and I don't know the facts or how to find them, but was Dempsey avoiding this sort of scrutiny merely a result of most of his fights being staged before most, or all, of these regulatory commissions were established?

Perhaps Klompton2 knows more about what the situation was.

*Just as an aside, did the NYSAC take any action or react at all to the refereeing in the Dempsey-Firpo fight?

 

By makeup do you mean hair dye?

Because I can't imagine what kind of makeup would make a fighter look younger.

At a glance, the shape of a fighter is usually judged by his build. I don't know what kind of makeup they could use to change that.

Unless they painted "abs" and "pecs" on him like the 300 movies. But I can't imagine someone painting "abs" on a guy between rounds.