Who beat better opposition Dempsey or Wills?

Flynn was 38 years old, a year younger than the present heavyweight champion, the same age as Walcott when he fought Marciano , a year younger than Moore when he challenged Marciano, a year older than Jack Johnson was when he went 26 rds with Willard,two years younger than Joe Jeannette was when he fought Wills in 1919.Three years younger than Vitali Klitschko was when he last defended his WBC heavyweight title.The same age as undefeated Floyd Mayweather, the current p4p number 1.

 

Dempsey World where winning eliminates yourself

Muldoon claimed Rickard wanted Wills to throw the Tunney fight. But maybe Renault?

 

Neil Clisby was a quite active black heavyweight based in Southern California during his career. As result, a good number of Southern California boxing people and fans knew who Clisby was at the time he fought Primo Carnera in Los Angeles, so it would have been difficult for him to be fly under the radar.

- Chuck Johnston

 

Have you never heard of that before? it was said comparatively recently when Machen fought Folley . ,"the elimination tournament was a success , both men eliminated themselves"
I'll try and find the original report ,then perhaps you'll have the goodness to retract your comment? The MilwaukeeJournal was one I've a new PC and have a lost lot of my old clippings
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Wills and Firpo

In 1924, Wills was offered a golden opportunity. He accepted an offer to fight the feared Luis Firpo, who had nearly dethroned Dempsey a year before. Promoted by Tex Rickard, Wills and Firpo met at Boyles Thirty Acres, New Jersey, on September 11, 1924. Jack Dempsey was at ringside. This intriguing matchup has largely been lost to history.

Both Wills and Firpo were knockout artists of roughly the same size. Firpo was slightly heavier and an inch taller than Wills. The Times Daily reported the odds at all but even on the day of the fight. The fight went the full 15 rounds to end in a no-decision contest. The newspapers including the Quebec Daily Telegraph hailed Wills as a winner who “took almost every round and in the second round floored his opponent.” In front of an audience 75,000, it was the highest profile fight of Wills’ career. But while the fight put Wills in the spotlight, it also put him under the microscope. After three years campaigning as top contender, some witnesses were not impressed. The Milwaukee Journal headlined, “Harry Wills No Match for Champion Dempsey. Wills general ability as a fighter would not be sufficiently high to stand the champion off. Firpo not only telegraphs his wallops, but sends a letter of warning…but Dempsey doesn’t telegraph. His punches come from a short distance and behind them lurk oblivion.”




On June 11, 1922, Dempsey and Wills put pens to contracts. But the powerful New York Commissioner William Muldoon did not want the fight to take place in New York. To complicate matters further, Muldoon and promoter Tex Rickard clashed over, of all things, ticket prices. Muldoon wanted 40,000 tickets fixed at $2.00 for the “working people.” Rickard refused. In retaliation, Muldoon blocked the Dempsey-Wills fight from taking place in New York, even threatening to halt all heavyweight fights until prices came down. Frustrated, Rickard traveled to several states—even north to Montreal—to find a welcoming venue. None wanted the fight or had the money to host the event. When the contract deadline ran out, Wills sued. From then until 1926, as the legal proceedings dragged on, a potential Dempsey-Wills fight was often in the news as either under consideration, being planned, or “scheduled for next year,” but never became a done deal.



Harry Takes the High Road in Low Country

Though Wills was black, he was not without means, money and popularity. Suing your way into a fight without promoters may have been like suing the stock market for not going up, but it got Wills’ case on record. In the meantime, there were many other fighters other than Wills in competition for Dempsey’s title, and the contenders battled one another for position. But Wills and his manager Paddy Mullins choose not to fight and thus eliminate any of his leading rivals including Tommy Gibbons, Billy Miske, Georges Carpentier, Jim Maloney, Harry Greb, Young Stribling, and Jack Delaney, none of whom drew the color line. Even Gene Tunney offered in 1925. Rickard may not have wanted to take chances, but Wills didn’t want to take chances either. By helping to keep Dempsey in court instead of the ring—Wills also sued to stop both the Dempsey-Firpo and Tunney fights—Wills may further have dimmed his own prospects



Jack and Harry Sign Again

There’s no doubt that Wills deserved a title fight, and even Dempsey expressed his regrets at not having the fight to set the record straight. The two respected each other. It was an injustice to Wills and to history. But while Dempsey’s persona was larger than life, control over his career was with Kearns and Rickard. It wasn’t his decision to make. He deferred to his managers for nearly all business matters, and if Dempsey lobbied, as he did to fight Wills in 1922, Rickard would talk him out of it. There is no indication in any testimony that Dempsey was afraid of Wills. No better proof of this came than when Dempsey and Wills signed to fight for the second time.

By March 1925, the New York Commission had reversed its position on sanctioning a Dempsey-Wills match. The Commission now declared Wills as Dempsey’s mandatory challenger and threatened to place Dempsey on the ineligible list if he did not comply. The Associated Press reported on July 17, 1925, that Dempsey appeared before the New York Licensing Commission and formally accepted Wills’ challenge. With Kearns now out of the picture, Dempsey was managing himself. On his own, with a new promoter, Dempsey made a genuine good faith effort to be matched with Wills


The Panther Cries Wolf

The heavyweight division continued to shake out; Tunney, Maloney, Delaney, Wills, Sharkey, Uzcundun and others were now in contention. In early 1926, Wills was offered $250,000 to fight Gene Tunney in a title eliminator, with the winner to meet the champion. Wills turned it down. Wills believed that fighting Dempsey was now a matter of entitlement. It was fateful decision. A Wills-Tunney fight may have changed the course of events. In any case the Tunney-Dempsey match was then scheduled.

Still there seemed no end to the claims, even as the Dempsey-Tunney fight approached. On August 6, 1926, the Evening Independent reported that a Chicago matchmaker, Doc Krone, announced that a $300,000 check was waiting for Dempsey in a Chicago bank. On August 22, the Telegraph Herald reported that Wills’ manager Paddy Mullins tried to bluff Dempsey once more into a contract, and then reportedly “failed to come forward with $150,000” saying, “We’ll post the money immediately if Dempsey will sign to fight Wills before September 23.” It was all too late. The public wanted Dempsey back, and he was in the ring with Gene Tunney three weeks later.

Then everything changed. Dempsey lost in an upset to Tunney, who then became champion. In October, Wills himself returned to the ring. At Brooklyn National League Park, a young and hungry Dempsey-esque heavyweight named Jack Sharkey brought Wills’ winning streak to an end. According to Time magazine, “Sharkey chopped and hacked at Wills, closed his eye, made his mouth bleed; all through the fight.” Wills reportedly backhanded, butted, and hit Sharkey during the breaks in an effort to discourage his opponent. After numerous warnings by the referee, Wills was disqualified in the 13th round. Wills soldiered on for several more fights, but retired

 

It's obvious to anyone without Dempsey tinted specs that Rickard controlled the boxing press and they were happy to run down Wills. Lets not pretend there wasn't plenty of racists amongst them. Most of those boxers Wills supposedly would never fight never dared step in the ring with a top black contender. BS they genuinely wanted to face Wills. Tunney who never fought a black man only wanted to fight Wills so long as he took a dive.

Plenty of the press also called Dempsey a coward and mocked his opposition.

The 'contract signing' was circus designed to make Dempsey look less of a coward than he really was.

Ultimately there was no other logical contender other than Wills

 

Yeah Dempsey who was fighting in bars for pass the hat change when he was 16 years old was a coward.
The only thing wrong with Dempsey, as far as your concerned is that he was WHITE !

 

Just like Greb eliminated himself when he dominated Gibbons in Rickards elimination and next thing you know Gibbons gets the title shot. Ludicrous.

Yes, it was said by D'amato that Foley and Machen eliminated themselves but that claim was met with derision as well. Only in the world of Dempsey and his fanboys could dropping and easily dominating a guy, that Dempsey went life and death with, eliminate you from a title shot in a title eliminator.

Wills was just damned if he did and damned if he didnt. Had he blitzed Firpo like he did Norfolk in another eliminator he wouldnt have gotten a shot. Had he lost they would have gladly given a shot to Firpo on the basis that Dempsey had beaten him already. Instead Wills dominated Firpo and still didnt get the shot. The bottom line is Dempsey was never going to fight Wills.

 

100% correct on all points

 

Frankly we dont know what Dempsey was doing at 16. He supposedly fought arojnd 100 bouts as Kid Blackie and yet not a single verifiable bout attributable to him as Kid Blackie has ever been found.

 

Dempsey didn't fight the best opposition and drew the colour (color) line to avoid the best opposition. That is the facts. If you want to defend him, Rickard's lack of faith in him is probably your best shield.

Stop pulling the race card to protect your hero, btw Dempsey was mixed race according to himself.

 

Greb was special I doubt there are any newspaper reports of him eliminating himself from contention by lack lustre displays.

You're a fine poster Steve, but I've never read anything positive about Jack Dempsey from you.

BTW .I've never suggested that Wills did not 100% earn and deserve a title shot.:good

 

A couple of people have stated that Tex Rickard controlled (not merely had influence with) the boxing press.

This seems quite an extraordinary statement, given the number of newspapers and writers involved.

Would anybody care to elaborate?

 

Did Rickard actually state this was an elimination? I always assumed Gibbons loss in the 4th fight had falled after Gibbons title shot was arranged.

 

I'm usually accused by Mendoza of favouring only black fighters. Im defending no one I'm simply saying there were newspaper reports that Wills performance against Firpo was not calculated to get him a title shot because it was lack lustre.That was my only comment and an avalanche of revisionism protest has descended. You've been accused of favouring only black fighters several times and being lacking in objectivity towards white boxers .Smoke, fire?
Rickard controlled all the press? Why didn't he have his court case for importuning young girls kept out of the papers then?
Grassy Knoll,Magic Bullet, Second Gunman?

 

The boxing press have always given the money fighter the credit. Whether it's ring side tickets, hospitality or whatever else it's in their interests to give the money men's side of the story and not the underdog.

Ten years ago you didn't get 1 journalist criticising Ricky Hatton for not facing Junior Witter, despite Hatton dropping his British Belt in order not to face him, not facing him for the 5 years after that prior to his title shot and not facing him after that even when Witter won the WBC belt. Why? Hatton was the money fighter, Witter wasn't, deserving or not.

You'll be hard pushed finding a champagne sipping journalist complaining about any contender not getting a shot, unless their a money contender who a promoter is encouraging them to kiss **** for.