Who beat better opposition Sonny Liston or Jack Dempsey

I am not so certain I agree with the "erratic fringe guys" argument concerning Liston's opponents. Here are some of the rankings from the end of 1957 to 1960--with Liston fighting all of them from 1958 to 1960.

Machen--1957 (#1), 1958 (#7), 1959 (#5), 1960 (#3)

Folley--1957 (#2), 1958 (#3), 1959 (#1), 1960 (#3)

Harris--1957 (#4), 1959 (#7)

Valdes--1957 (#6), 1958 (#2)

DeJohn--1957 (#7), 1958 (#10), 1959 (#eight), 1960 (#6)

Bethea--1957 (#eight)

Hunter--1959 (#6)

DeJohn clearly held his rating through the whole era. Harris had actually lost only to Patterson prior to being blown out by Liston.

Except for Valdes, I don't see anyone who one could argue was really past it, and Valdes had been #2 about six months earlier and would win his next one against London.

Williams was not rated yet, but one must admit he had an imposing record of blowing out second-stringers, somewhat the same as Brennan.

 

I would be interested in who folks think would have been rated of Dempsey's opponents when Dempsey fought them, of those he fought prior to fighting Willard.

Fulton and Brennan definitely.

Miske probably at light-heavy. Levinsky was the light-heavy champion.

I don't know about the others. Gunboat Smith, Flynn, Morris, Pelkey, etc. seem to have been losing quite a bit by this time.

 

Machen and Folley had good rankings when Liston fought them, but a lot of the other guys were in the lower half of the top 10, or outside it.

Of course we can't be sure what the rankings of Dempsey's opponents would have been, but he met a lot of them when their currency was at its highest.

 

My best guess.

I think that Fulton would have been #1, and I also think that Miske and Brennan would have been top five.

Levinsky probably somewhere I guess.

I think that Smith, Flynn, Morris, and Pelkey would have slipped out of the rankings by then

 

Jack Dempsey deserves some credit for knocking out these experienced fighters who had never been KO'd before ...

Bill Brennan (never knocked out before, and only knocked out the once by Dempsey when they fought for a second time)

Billy Miske (despite his illness, never knocked out before or after Dempsey did it)

Battling Levinsky (never knocked out before, in about 250 fights, went the distance with Tunney several years later)

 

Gunboat Smith and Carl Morris might have held rankings when Dempsey beat them by decision in four rounders, but not in the later and more emphatic wins.

 

Another quality post:good

 

I have no problem with Machen, Folley and Harris as current fighters with form but the others Liston gets credit for beating really were "erratic fringe guys" whom all contenders would and could feast on.

Valdes did not fight sonny in a month he was rated. Nino fought Liston in 1959 losing more than he was winning that year. Nino was coming off two crushing defeats in his last two meaningful fights of that year to Alonzo Johnson and the footballer Charlie Powell who actually knocked valdes down three tines. He was lucky to cut Brian London in his last fight because he was already damaged goods before fighting Sonny.

Mike DeJohn went 2-2 in 1959 and won just 3 of his last 6 fights meeting Sonny. I would call that erratic form.

Bethea had a rating in 1957 but he met Sonny in 1958. In 1958 the erratic Wayne went 1-3 and had lost his most recent fight before fighting Sonny. Wayne Bethea had not strung more than three wins together without defeat in his 8 fights since December 1956.

If Billy Hunter was rated in 1959 it could only have been after he beat Mitef late that year. Trouble was Hunter fought Sonny Liston a year earlier and had never been scheduled further than 6 rounds on the Detroit-Toronto circuit. Billy would go on to get knocked out by Brian London anyway proving also to be erratic at name level once he reached it.

 

I'm always willing to learn,and admit when I'm wrong.

You might try it sometime.:yep

 

What has that got to do with DeJohn, Valdes, Hunter, Bethea all being proven as ERRATIC FRINGE GUYS when facing Sonny Liston?

I'm not saying Dempsey did not fight a few of them himself (he did Gunboat, Morris etc) but I am not the one celebrating those victories.

Sonny Liston did remarkably well with the few fights that he had. His career basicly got going in 1958 after being absent for the whole of 57' and most of 56'. and was good enough to toast fringe guys straight away after that incarceration. Within 15 months he's a very good contender. This shows extraordinary talent since it was like starting over again. But the question is resume. Dempsey had a longer grooming and apreintiship, way more fights. Fought and beat more guys who were current over a longer time. Whilst Jack should have fought Wills, Sonny could have fought ingo.