Who beat better opposition Sonny Liston or Jack Dempsey

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, May 22, 2015.


  1. edward morbius

    edward morbius Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Choklab--you can use "erratic fringe guys" as long as you're fair and use the same criteria for all champions.

    Dempsey opponents

    Here is the Bill Brennan going into the Dempsey fight and afterward

    Battling Levinsky--L 12
    Homer Smith------W 10
    Battling Levinsky--D 12
    Jack Dempsey-----KO by 6
    Tom McMahon-----D 10
    Joe Bonds---------KO 3
    Harry Greb--------L 10
    Harry Greb--------L 10
    Billy Miske---------L 15
    Billy Miske---------D 8
    Harry Greb--------L 15
    Harry Greb--------L 10

    12 fights--2 wins--7 losses--3 draws

    *certainly erratic--if he isn't fringe, why wasn't he?

    What about Billy Miske, who was better

    He had some wins to balance the losses, but he had plenty of losses from 1917 to 1920

    1917--Kid Norfolk --L 12

    1918--Jack Dempsey--Draw 10
    1918--Harry Greb--L 10
    1918--Jack Dempsey--L 6

    1919--Harry Greb--L 10
    1919--Kid Norfolk--L 10
    1919--Tommy Gibbons--D 10
    1919--Battling Levinsky--L 12

    1920--Jack Dempsey--KO by 3

    Interestingly, weights are given for a few of these fights. For the 1918 Greb fight Miske weighed 177, Greb 150. For the 1919 Gibbons fight, Miske weighed 177, Gibbons 162.

    *Miske was better than Brennan, but still unable to compete at all with Greb and Norfolk, who were not heavyweights.

    Battling Levinsky

    Fought a great deal, but had a lot of losses,

    1917--

    Lost to--Tommy Gibbons, Bob McAllister, Harry Greb, Bill Brennan,
    Drew with--Jim Coffey, Bill Brennan, Bartley Madden

    1918--

    Lost to--Bartley Madden, Harry Greb,
    KO'd by--Jack Dempsey

    1919--Lost to Harry Greb, Harry Greb, Johnny Howard, Harry Greb, Harry Greb

    1920--KO'd by--Georges Carpentier
    lost to--Boy McCormick, Charley Weinert
    Drew with--Chuck Wiggins, Jack Renault

    1921--Drew with--Bob Roper

    1922--Lost to Gene Tunney

    In all the fights they had with him, none of these men could beat Greb, who seems to have been a smallish middleweight at the time,

    and they were having all sorts of close fights, draws, and losses to other fighters.

    All these guys were erratic.
     
  2. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    No I think the point is Dempsey did beat more opponents with more "at the time" world rated or leading contender credentials than Sonny Liston. I fully accept Both fought erratic fringe guys too.

    Bill Brennan was 22-2-3 when meeting Dempsey the first time. This time around Bill had already beat names like homer Smith, Bartley Madden and Battling Levinsky. Bill had yet to fight Greb and Miske. Dempsey was the first man to knock Brennan out. At that point with a boxrec record if 22-2-3 Brennan was decent. That time around Bill was considered a leading contender for Willards title. One report listed Brennan as already having fought 67 times with over 40 KO wins. He was a contender at this point but Dempsey might have softened him for Miske and Greb.

    Levinskey was only fringe and erratic. So was Carl Morris and Gunboat at the time they fought Jack Dempsey. They were much like Valdes, DeJohn and Bethea when facing Liston in that respect though all were better known than the novice Billy Hunter.

    Miske was decent though. You can make a case for erratic fringe labelling after 1919-1920 but the first two times Miske fought Dempsey was in 1918 when he had a better record. On boxrec Billy was 20-1-1 and 23-1-2. He had already drew with both Greb and Fulton and beat Charlie Wienert, Jack Dillon, Gunboat smith and Battling Levinsky. He was a current leading contender.

    In all there is a much stronger case for putting Brennan and Miske in the "current leading contender list" (in their non title fights with Dempsey) than there is in putting them in the "erratic fringe guy" list. I would put Miske and Brenan in the curent list rather than Billy Hunter, Mike DeJohn and Wayne Bethea in the "current leading contender list" for Liston.
     
  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Dempsey and most of Dempsey's best victims drew the color line. It was basically white against white. This made the competition pool easier.

    Liston fought in a time where the color line wasn't drawn. liston fought top contenders regardless of race.

    Dempsey only took on the white contenders
     
  4. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    The best heavyweights in the world from 1959-1963 were Sonny Liston, Cleveland Williams, Floyd Patterson, Ingemar Johansson, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley.

    Liston's fought 4 out of the 5 men going 6-0 with 5 knockouts.


    Liston beat the best of his era. Dempsey never met Wills or Greb. He did not beat the best of his era.
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Cleveland Williams was not among the best heavyweights in the world before 1961 but I agree with everything else. :good

    Liston missed out one guy within 1960-1963 and Dempsey missed two guys out from 1917-1927 so it kind of evens things out dosnt it?
     
  6. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    No

    Because

    1. Johannson ducked Liston
    2. Johannson was not the most outstanding challenger of the era like Wills

    3. Dempsey did not beat the best of his era. He didn't even beat the two best of his era. Liston beat the best of his era
    4. Dempsey ducked wills and Greb
    5. Liston ducked nobody
     
  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    I meant to say 1958-1964.

    Williams was top 10 rated when Liston beat him in 1960

    Williams was one of the best heavyweights in the world from 1959-1964. He didn't achieve his top 10 ranking until 1960 when he fought liston. But the 1959 Williams who fought liston may have blown out patterson very early
     
  8. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    Yes, but Dempsey still beat a lot more key fighters, in part because he had a longer time span to work with!
     
  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    He beat a lot of Key White Fighters..who rose to the top of of the rankings because they didn't have to face a good fighter of a different race.

    Most Importantly Dempsey did not defeat The TWO most important fighters of his era..the two key fighters of his era...Wills and Greb

    Literally every key fighter you tell me Dempsey beat(with the exception of Sharkey) I can say that fighter got his ass kicked by either Greb or Wills.

    Lastly Liston beat a lot of key fighters. He beat 4 out of the 5 most key fighters of his era. Did Dempsey do that? No way

    Liston also beat a lot of second tier contenders like Summerlin Dejohn bethea Clark hunter Marshall Harris etc


    Longer time span helps when you take 3 years off and avoid your two best contenders for 7 years.

    Liston cleaned out his era In a 4 year span. That is more impressive.
     
  10. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    OK, so how many good black fighters were there?

    Wills, obviously.

    Norfolk, lost to Gibbons.

    Tate, ignored today because he embarrassed Harry Wills.

    Godfrey, never got his career off the ground!
     
  11. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    On July 5, 1919, the New York Times reported: "In the first statement he has made since becoming the heavyweight champion of the world, Jack Dempsey announced today that he would draw the color line. He will pay no attention to negro challengers, but will defend his title against any white heavyweight as the occasion demands."
     
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    He later changed his mind, and announced with a big fanfare, that he had dissolved the color bar!

    The facts are complex.
     
  13. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Wills is a big deal. The man is arguable a top 15 heavyweight of all time.

    Norfolk was at the end of the road when he fought gibbons. Norfolk also beat billy miske back in 1919 pretty convincingly . Misske got the title shot instead the next year.

    Dempsey fought to a draw with John Lester Johnson in 1916. after that he never got back in the ring with a black fighter again.

    He turned down a fight with Sam Langford in 1917.

    He ran out of the ring in 1918 against a 39 year old Joe Jeanette

    George Godfrey is in the hall of fame

    A lot of black fighters never got opportunities to fight in big matches against other white fighters during this time. How do you explain that after black heavyweights began getting more chances....the heavyweight championship lineage has been dominatdd by the Africans American race,
     
  14. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I think Patterson was a lot better than Bob Satterfeild. I think Tommy Huricane Jackson was a better fighter than Cleveland big Cat Williams. At least Tommy could beat contenders. Sonny beat better fighters than Williams after losing the title. How can you be sure Williams could have blown out any world champion? Williams never blew out a current contender!!!
     
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Ingo was an outstanding challenger of his era. He dominated Europe at a time when the top American contenders Folley and Machen went 1-3-1 against European champions. Then ingo wiped the floor with Machen. Ingo was automatic title shot material in 1958.

    As a contender Johansson was ALWAYS rated ABOVE Liston. He was rated as early as 1956 when Sonny was in the Slammer. Ingo was climbing up the ratings not down them. When ingo won the title There was a rematch clause. When did he duck Sonny?

    I don't think Sonny ducked ingo. Sonny had a rematch clause with Floyd and Ali himself. Ingo and Sonny just didn't get to fight because it was a rematch clause era with fewer title fights per year than usual.