Who beat better opposition Sonny Liston or Jack Dempsey

Let's throw Harris out, since I think Williams was the better fighter. He may have not been as highly rated as Harris at the time, but he was better.

So Machen, Folley, Williams, Patterson, Valdes. I would argue here that Valdes was only the 5th best American heavyweight at the time.


The best european heavyweights from 56-62 were Johansson, Cooper, Erskine, london, richardson, neuhas. Mildenberger does not count, he was a mid 60s heavyweight. By the time he fought Folley and Machen, they were way past their primes.

Not to mention Mildenberger was lucky to get a draw with Folley



"Veteran Zora Folley gave young Karl Mildenberger a boxing lesson Friday night but the judges evened it up and called it a draw - a verdict that stunned most of the 12,000 fans that jammed the Messehalle here to watch the two highly ranked heavyweights in what was billed as an elimination match. Folley carved out cuts under Mildenberger's eyes and repeatedly scored with solid left jabs and straight right hands over the southpaw efforts of the German challenger. By the end of the 7th round Mildenberger had cuts under both eyes while Folley bled from the nose as a result of Mildenberger's left. Referee Otto Nispel took it upon himself to stop the fight time and again to warn Folley on butting and in the 8th round Nispel stopped the fight while he took Mildenberger to his corner and wiped the blood off his face so a doctor could come to the ringside and examine the cuts. Mildenberger, although clearly outclassed, never stopped trying and absorbed a tremendous amount of punishment from the American. He was still trying gamely in the 9th and 10th while Folley was content to coast and that was all the judges seemingly needed." -

European Stars & Stripes
Unofficial Stars & Stripes scorecard - 7-2-1 Folley




Let's start with Johansson. Against the 5 I listed above, he went 2-2.

Patterson clearly established he was the better fighter, which means the European scene did not have the best in the world for heavyweights.

Cooper: Against the 5 I listed above, he went 1-2.

Good fighter. I scored the Folley-Cooper fight for Folley. I thought it was a hometown decision. Folley proved his superiority in the rematch by flattening him in 2 rounds. Patterson destroyed Cooper in 4 rounds.

Erskine. Against the 5 I listed above, he went 0-1. He suffered a brutal 1 round knockout loss to Nino Valdes. Erskine was a good fighter, he beat Henry Cooper twice and knocked out Brian London.

"Nino Valdes, the big Cuban who is making a habit of whipping British heavyweights, scored a TKO over Joe Erskine, Britain's champion, last night at 2:03 of the 1st round of a scheduled 10 rounder. Valdes finished Erskine almost before the capacity crowd of 18,000 had settled in it's seats at Earls Court Arena. A right to the chin sent Erskine down for a six count. As he got off the canvas, Valdes followed with a solid left hook. Erskine, who never had been beaten in 30 professional fights, was so groggy he did not know what was happening. He was defenseless and went down again when Valdes landed several more good punches. Referee Jack Hart then stopped the fight." -United Press

London: Against the 5 I listed above, he went 0-3. He was knocked out by Patterson, and stopped inside the distance by a 36 year old Nino Valdes, and Eddie Machen.


Richardson: Against the 5 I listed above, he went 0-2. He was knocked out by Nino Valdes, and lost by DQ against C Williams after he had already been knocked down early. If we had DeJohn in the mix, he went 0-4 against American Heavyweights. Richardson did score a one round knockout over Mildenberger, whom you rate very highly.



So the 5 best European Heavyweights went 3-10 against the 5 best American Heavyweights during Liston's era

 

Harris and Williams grew up in the same state. Harris knew whom Williams was and wanted nothing to do with him.

 

Chokelab

1. Folley was completely robbed against Mildenberger.



"Veteran Zora Folley gave young Karl Mildenberger a boxing lesson Friday night but the judges evened it up and called it a draw - a verdict that stunned most of the 12,000 fans that jammed the Messehalle here to watch the two highly ranked heavyweights in what was billed as an elimination match. Folley carved out cuts under Mildenberger's eyes and repeatedly scored with solid left jabs and straight right hands over the southpaw efforts of the German challenger. By the end of the 7th round Mildenberger had cuts under both eyes while Folley bled from the nose as a result of Mildenberger's left. Referee Otto Nispel took it upon himself to stop the fight time and again to warn Folley on butting and in the 8th round Nispel stopped the fight while he took Mildenberger to his corner and wiped the blood off his face so a doctor could come to the ringside and examine the cuts. Mildenberger, although clearly outclassed, never stopped trying and absorbed a tremendous amount of punishment from the American. He was still trying gamely in the 9th and 10th while Folley was content to coast and that was all the judges seemingly needed." -

European Stars & Stripes
Unofficial Stars & Stripes scorecard - 7-2-1 Folley



2. Machen was way over the hill in 1966. He had been sent to a nut house in 1964, and never recovered. Not only was he physically past his prime by 1966, but mentally he had so many screws lose by this point. Machen wasn't even rated in the top 10 anymore, and hadn't been for 2 years!



I hope Edward Morbus sees that Folley was on the wrong end of some rotten decisions overseas.

 

The 5 best European Heavyweights went 3-10 against the 5 best American Heavyweights during Liston's era

 

First fight was hometown cooking, Folley knocked him down. Second fight Folley destroyed him in 2 rounds...smashed him, you forgetting that?

Pastrano was a light heavy. He was not a top 5 heavyweight during listons era.


Like I said he top 5 European heavyweights went 3-10 against top 5 American heavyweights.