Who beat the better competition at heavyweight Archie Moore or Gene Tunney?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008.


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  1. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    who rates higher at heavyweight all time?


    Heres the Breakdown


    Genes heavyweight record 8-0

    Archies heavyweight record 75-4(counting the rinaldo over the weight limit loss)


    genes record against men over 200lb 1-0(1ko)

    archies record against men over 200lb 22-1(19ko)


    Genes record against hall of fame heavyweights- 2-0(0)

    Archies record against hall of fame heavyweights- 5-3(3kos)

    * charles and johnson fights were at 175lb dont count, but moores 4 wins over hall of fame heavyweight jimmy bivins over the limit count and his win over hall of famer clarence henry



    genes record against ring magazine top 10 heavyweights under the age of 30- 1-0.... Ermillio Spalla

    Archies record against ring magazine top 10 heavyweight under the age of 30- 10-2(4kos)




    Top heavyweights beaten


    Tunney-

    Jack dempsey 2x- 32 years old coming off 3 year layoff, beat sharkey
    Tommy Gibbons - 34 years old last fight of his career, top 10 rated
    Ermillio Spalla - top 10 rated
    Tom Heeney- 203lb top 10 rated 30 years old
    Johnny Risko- 18-8 23 years old
    Charley Weinert 2x- 54-15

    Moore-

    Nino Valdez 2x- 6'3 215lb # 1 heavyweight contender 28 years old
    Bob Baker- 6'2 210lb # 2 rated heavyweight contender 26 years old
    Clarence Henry- hall of famer, # 3 rated heavyweight contender 25 years old
    Jimmy Bivins 4x- Hall of Famer 27-29 years old # 2 rated heavyweight
    Alejandro lavorante- 6'4 212lb, # 4 rated heavyweight contender, 26 years old
    James J parker- 6'3 212lb 29-5 top 10 rated 25 years old
    Bob Satterfield - 26 years old
    Embrell Davidson- 6'1 210lb 20-1 22 years old
    Hatchetman Sheppard 2x- top 10 rated 27 years old

    * I left off 4 wins over harold johnson, because johnson weighed 175lb despite him literally beating all of the heavyweight contenders out there at 175lb.
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
    #1
  2. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    That is a rather impressive breakdown, SuzieQ49. It really made me read through it before making my statement on the subject.

    Tunney gets it in my opinion, because he actually won the heavyweight championship. Your comparison does make it a legitimate question. I feel sorry for Moore in this regard. I really wish he could have won the heavyweight championship.

    Still, Moore didn't and Tunney did.
     
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
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  3. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Good points.....When you have to go against marciano and floyd patterson on one of his best nights.....it makes things rather difficult.


    say archie had gotten to fight bob baker or hurricane jackson for the vacant heavyweight championship in 1956(instead of patterson) and won.....then in his 1st title defense been knocked out by floyd patterson? would ur opinion change then? seeing how he would have been champion?
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
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  4. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    75-3?

    Wow. Never knew Archie quite did that well at heavyweight.
     
    Russell, Oct 10, 2008
    Russell, Oct 10, 2008
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  5. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    That is an interesting, and relevant statistic. Thanks for messing with the confidence I have in my opinion.

    I still stick by my original pick and reasons.
     
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
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  6. the cobra

    the cobra Awesomeizationism! Full Member

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    Especially since the 3 losses came to Marciano, Patterson, and Ali.
     
    the cobra, Oct 10, 2008
    the cobra, Oct 10, 2008
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  7. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Heres another good statistic for you Russell...



    Ezzard Charles, Rocky Marciano, Jersey Joe Walcotts record = 0-1 vs top 5 rated Henry, Baker, Valdez


    Moores record- 4-0 vs baker henry valdez
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
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  8. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    No, and here is why. Tunney defeated Jack Dempsey. Dempsey was his day's Marciano, in terms of who the champion was. Marciano retired, and left a void to be filled. Winning against the challengers you mentioned would not fill this void, unfair or not.
     
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
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  9. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    Interesting point about beating the man...


    But was Jack Dempsey not far removed from his prime? Marciano battered joe louis worse than Gene tunney battered dempsey, but I dont see anyone praising that one on a high pedastool?

    As for comparing marciano with dempsey, was not the 1955 rocky marciano a much tougher fighter than the 1926 3 year layoff jack dempsey?

    do you rate michael spinx highly for beating the man at heavyweight larry holmes twice?
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Oct 10, 2008
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  10. rekcutnevets

    rekcutnevets Black Sash Full Member

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    As far as the Marciano battering Louis is concerned, Louis had retired then came back. There was a champion for Marciano to win the title from, and Louis had been replaced. Dempsey was still champ when he first lost to Tunney.

    The 1955 Rocky probably was tougher than the 1926 Dempsey. Tunney beat Dempsey in most every round. If Rocky could manage to win 4 rounds against Tunney, would that mean he is over 4 times the fighter Dempsey was?

    You can argue that Spinks was a better heavyweight than Tunney. His wins over Holmes and Cooney are arguable as good, or better, than any victory Tunney achieved.
     
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
    rekcutnevets, Oct 10, 2008
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  11. Russell

    Russell Loyal Member Full Member

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    And you really can't even hold the Ali loss against him, looking at the circumstances.

    70 some odd wins against great fighters who are men far bigger then you, and only losing to two of them, who happen to be ATG's...

    That's amazing.
     
    Russell, Oct 10, 2008
    Russell, Oct 10, 2008
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  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Neither did I, but keep in mind these are SuzieQ's numbers

    In truth, Moore more than three times when he was over 175 pounds. Marciano, Patterson, Rinadli and Ali come to mind

    Moore is also 0-3 vs Charles, and was Ko'd by a middle weights.
     
    Mendoza, Oct 11, 2008
    Mendoza, Oct 11, 2008
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  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Moore has the better record on paper,imo,but I pick Tuinney to beat him at Hvy And LH
     
    mcvey, Oct 11, 2008
    mcvey, Oct 11, 2008
    #13
  14. SuzieQ49

    SuzieQ49 The Manager Full Member

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    They are accurate, I did a count of every moore fight in which he weighed over the 175lb limit and/or his opponent weighed over the 175lb limit. I left off the charles and harold johnson fights since they all took place a 175lb. Thank you for bringing up the Rinaldi fight, that one slipped my mind since it was nothing more than a over the weight light-h match, but following my standards, that one belongs as a moore loss at heavyweight giving him 75 wins and 4 losses and 3 draws.......still not bad!


    btw now knowing moore did so well at heavyweight mendoza, does that change ur opinion of him?


    Marcianofrazier if your out there, can you confirm moores record for me I believe u had it very close to my numbers?
     
    SuzieQ49, Oct 11, 2008
    SuzieQ49, Oct 11, 2008
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  15. Minotauro

    Minotauro Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Moore fought more at the weight and is probably more proven but Tunney has the Dempsey wins and although Jack was past his best they are still quality wins over an ATG. I think it’s fair to rank either guy higher at heavyweight I personally have Moore higher at light heavy and Tunney higher at heavy.
     
    Minotauro, Oct 11, 2008
    Minotauro, Oct 11, 2008
    #15
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