Who beats a prime Roy Jones head to Head under 190lb?

I don't care how " fantastic " Moore was going into fukkin Woolworth's never mind the Marciano fight. In the Johnson fight, BOTH of them looked like old men walking through treacle compared to Jones at his peak at 175.

It is as simple as that.

Some people just appear to want to be stupid. This is not about resume, where Jones is not fit to be mentioned in the same breath as Moore. It is about the speed, athleticism, and reflexes of both, and Moore doesn't even come 3rd, when there is only 2 of them. That's how far behind he is.

 

How's things?

Oh how I've missed our Roy debates.

What's garbage?

I've watched Roy a long time, and if I put him into a fantasy fight, it's either the Toney or Paz version that I think of.

I wouldn't pick three of the Fab Four over him at 160, and certainly not at 168. That was Roy at his absolute peak IMHO, weighing 175 on fight night. I'm not saying he was a better fighter than them, but apart from Marvin, they peaked at the lower weights.

I respect your opinion that you have a number of candidates at 160/168 to beat Roy, but not so many, if any at all, to beat him at 175. But is that honestly because you think Roy was better at 175, or is it because you rate the fighters at the lower weights, more than what you rate the fighters at the higher weights? Because I think most people will agree that Roy was at his best at SMW.

Regarding Roy's fight night weight at 175, he normally rehydrated by 6-8 pounds. He had 25 official fights at the weight, but in 14 of those, he weighed in under the limit. I think that apart from the first Tarver fight, his fight night weight was normally between 180-182 pounds. So he was closer to 175 than he was to 190 for the majority of the time. Not that it's important though.


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He might have looked good beating a weight drained Toney at 168, but how can anyone get so excited about him beating the blown up S / Welter Paz, Byrd who was nothing special as were Thornton, Brannon, or Lucas?

Surely you can't seriously think any of those with the " possible " exception of Toney are fit to be named in the same breath as Hearns, Leonard or Hagler? I don't care if Hagler only weighed in at 161 he would be a far more worthy opponent than that dross.

We have had these debates before and I simply don't believe Jones only re hydrated 5 pounds after weighing in at 175. I still say he was nearer 190 than 175 by fight time ( it only takes 183 ), and I'll tell you why.

He weighed in at 193 for Ruiz

here he is fighting Woods 6 months earlier

[url]https://youtu.be/aNu4ENVDdbg?t=71[/url]

Here is the Ruiz fight

[url]https://youtu.be/1Tl8ANiP7VM?t=38[/url]

and you are claiming he was a stone heavier ( all bar the shouting anyway )

Doesn't appear that way to me. No difference in the legs, a bit more in the upper body, but almost 14lbs? I don't think so.

 

Foxy 01,

I agree. But again, I just think he was at his absolute best at 25/26.

No, apart from Toney, I agree that none of those guys are fit to be named in the same breath as three of the Fab Four. But again, in my honest opinion, Roy was at his absolute peak at SMW. That's how I see it. I think at SMW, he was a slightly better fighter than he was at MW and LHW. There were just subtle differences to me. At SMW, he had a swagger that came with knowing he was the best. And I think he was a tiny bit sharper, and he was less inclined to take breaks on the ropes. He also fought a little more regularly, and he didn't have as many issues with his hands that he had at MW and LHW. It's just something I feel when I watch him. He was fully matured at 25/26, and I think a 94/95 version of him was slighlty better than the late 90's/early 00's versions of him. Again, if I had a time machine and I was putting him into a fantasy fight, I'd pick a 1995 version of him, despite the opposition that he fought at that time. I'm just being honest with you.

No, again it was normally 6/7 pounds, and in more than half of his LHW fights, he weighed in under the limit. And in some of those fights where he came in under, a few of them were a full 2-3 pounds under. But it's not important though.

Yes, I believe he was about a stone heavier. His arms and his chest looked noticeably different to me.

I think he weighed 181 for Woods, and according to Mackie Shilstone, Roy went to him weighing 192 pounds at the start of his Ruiz camp.

There's some very interesting information both in Thomas Hauser's article (below) and in the documentary titled - 'The Sweet Science' that follows Roy in the build up to the fight. It includes the controversy of the weigh in. Roy's official weight was listed as 193 pounds, but Marc Ratner who was the executive of the N.S.A.C. hadn't let the scales calibrate correctly, and Roy was reweighed the night of the fight. The weight then registered 199 pounds, and Thomas Hauser noted that he weighed 196 pounds, if three pounds were subtracted to account for his clothing.

[url]http://www.secondsout.com/columns/thomas-hauser/jones-ruiz-and-the-roy-jones-legacy1[/url]


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Firstly, let me apologise for my lack of manners. The first thing I should have done is ask how you are as its been a few weeks since we had a chat. So sorry for that.

I understand it is all according to how you view fighters. I just think Jones comp at 168 flattered to deceive somewhat. I believe his opposition at 175 though not top drawer was better than at 168, yet he still made them look amateurish to be honest.

I don't get the part about Jones increasing weight between the weigh in and fight time for Ruiz at all. No matter if it was 3 or 6 pounds. Why would he need to boil anything off?

This all hinges on whether or not the scales were calibrated correctly at the weigh in where he scaled 193. But again no matter if it should have been 196, how does the extra 3 / 6 come into it if the guy only ever regained 5 or 6 at L / Heavy? It makes no sense.

 

Foxy 01,

No worries mate. I'm fine thanks. I hope you are too. Yes, it's been a while since we've debated. There's nothing better than debating Roy's career with you. It's always fun.

:good

Most definitely.

There was lots of confusion. But as I understand it, Mackie and Roy expected the official weigh in to be somewhere in the region of 200 pounds. Again, Roy went to Mackie at 192 pounds at the start of camp, and Mackie stripped his bodyfat and built him up. He changed his body fat percentage from 8.7 to 6.

So there was nothing to boil off. Roy didn't rehydrate by 6 pounds overnight, it's just that the official scales were wrong. In the documentary, Marc Ratner reweighed him the following day and apologised to Mackie who was obviously stood there watching. And when it read 199 pounds, Mackie said "I told you the scales were out yesterday" while pointing at him. Then they both shared a joke and shook hands.

At LHW, Roy obviously had to hit 175 or under. So he had to dehydrate himself in the last few days and lose water weight. Then following the weigh in, he normally rehydrated by 6-8 pounds overnight. But at HW, there was obviously no limit to boil down to. Which meant that he wouldn't have been dehydrated, which in turn meant that he wouldn't have needed to have rehydrated himself overnight like normal.

So basically, he didn't rehydrate by 6 pounds overnight. According to Mackie, he was around the same weight both before and after the weigh in.

The documentary is good, and it's still on YouTube if you're interested enough to watch it.


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Delete

 

Ok, so now we have got 199 as the " unofficial " weight even though it is Ratner operating the scales. That means he is either 16, or 17 lbs more than his " normal L / Heavy fight time weight.

I understand that everyone is different, but here is Tyson at 218


[url]https://youtu.be/unpMEvEZXAA?t=58[/url]

And here is Tyson at 234

[url]https://youtu.be/oBYQBSNN0PE?t=26[/url]

Now that is 16 lbs difference, and it shows noticeably. I would say the 2 Jones clips do not.

So it might be best if you post a link to that You Tube documentary.

I'm just scanning through a few clips of Jones fighting career Light Heavies, and he simply doesn't appear to have any discernible difference to them in build, height or reach. So I find it hard to believe they ALL came in at 180 - 182 as you claim he was. Ffs Pac, Hatton, and even Mayweather regain more than 5 or 6 pounds between weigh in and fight time.

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Jones had no chin for Archie, ask Tarver and Johnson

 

I couldn't care less to be honest. You had best take that up with Loudon, who will tell you those KO's were solely down to Jones bulking up for Ruiz and then coming back down again at the age of 34. I personally think that is horse manure, but who knows, you might buy it?

Moore though is as good an example as any, in that he went from 175 ( KO -11 ) up to 192 ( KO - 3 ) and back down to 173 ( KO - 3 ) all within 9 months aged 42. For that reason I do tend to take the Jones excuses with a pinch of salt.

In any event you can't hurt what you can't hit, and the best version of Jones at 175 isn't going to get hit that often or cleanly by Moore.

Too slow, methodical, and predictable.

 

If you go with Thomas Hauser's weight, he was 196 pounds. That would have made him 15 pounds heavier than when he fought Woods. But again, after reading up on it and watching the documentary, I've no reason not to believe it. Again, Mackie says Roy came to him already at 192 pounds.

You've made a great point regarding Tyson though. I see what you're saying. I don't know what others think, but I can see a noticeable difference in Roy against Ruiz. A lot of other people may agree with you though.

With regards to the fight night weight of Roy's opponents, I've honestly no idea. But like you say, everyone's different. But again, he normally rehydrated 6-8 pounds.

Below is the documentary for you. Unfortunately it's in 5 parts, but it's only on around an hour in total. I found it very interesting, and Mackie Shilstone's credentials speak for themselves.


Part 1

[url]http://youtu.be/s3z7LZjmXTw[/url]


Part 2

[url]http://youtu.be/2oYj3zWKCJU[/url]


Part 3

[url]http://youtu.be/HlMylf9__eg[/url]


Part 4

[url]http://youtu.be/IrHydFIwfBo[/url]


Part 5

[url]http://youtu.be/ZGPqkQmJTYY[/url]



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It is my experience that fighters who are legitimately head and shoulders above their peers, do not shy away from fighting the better contenders around, and do not have trouble making fights with most of them.

How many people backed away from a figth with Joe Louis?

The reason why I think that Jones always knew that he had a chin problem, is that if he didn't have, he would have been a joe Louis figure.

Even guys like McClellan and Michalczewski, would have been comparativley low risk propositions.

 

I don't believe that those losses were solely down to the weight loss. I believe it was a culmination of things, but I give Tarver all of the credit in the world for landing that shot.

With regards to Moore's weight loss, I never do direct comparisons with other fighters because everyone's circumstances are different. Although a number of other fighters have moved up and down divisions without issue, there's been other fighters apart from Roy who've also struggled. Most notably Chris Byrd and Chad Dawson. Also, when Mackie Shilstone helped Hopkins to move up to LHW to face Tarver, he said that he expected Tarver to be 'flat' due to his weight loss after his role in the Rocky movie.


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Roy didn't shy away from the better contenders around.

And I don't think you can do direct comparisons between the 30's/40's and the 90's/00's.

 

Mike Tyson found no shortage of sacrificial victims, during his early rampage.

You probably understand the politics of the era better than I do, but my instincts are telling me, that Jones must have met the opposition half way in this.