Who beats Ali? No hedging your bets, who do YOU pick to straight up beat him?

Maybe so but if they where to get into the ring and I had to put my mortgage on the fight - I am honestly not sure who I'd put it on. Probably Bowe if I'm honest due to his size.

 

Like Zora Folley and Quarry did?

He would block nothing without a proper guard. Ali beat many fighters that were faster than Norton.

Neutralize what? Ali very rarely fought in close. It would be Ali neutralizing Johnson if anything.

So Ali completely outclassing Terrell showed he wasn't good on the front foot? Don't quite follow you there. The belief that Ali wasn't good on the front foot is mostly born of the difficulties a very depleted Ali had with master spoiler Young. I can't come to think of any other time when he was thrown off his game when fighting on the front foot.

Neither would be frustrated. These guys just weren't.

This sounds simple doesn't, it? But it was shown to be extremely difficult to do against Ali. And Ali didn't just have on-two attack. He brought everything to the table. Even in one of his worst perfomances pre-exile, against Jones, he showed he couldd use for example the left hook effectively. A lead right was another alternative.

I don't. Ive hot tons of respect for Johnson, and believe that he was an artist for his day. But I think boxing has evolved since then and that Ali was stylewise wrong for him.

Of course he did, and he should. But he refused to portray him in a movie during his exile, even though he badly needed the money. His reason was that Johnson slept with white women.

I know.

I know that for example Nat Fleischer had him as the greatest. And for his own era he may well have been, but there were features in his style that I don't think would have translated too well to modern times.

Ok.

 

Klitschkos, Lewis

 

Ali is not exactly a small heavyweight.

I think that if he got into the modern steroid pumping craze he would be a superheavyweight.

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That would also fundamentally change his style.

 

Either:

A. He could add muscle without loss of speed in which case I would be scared.

or

B. He couldnt in which case he would be better able to execute this fight at his 60s weight and Lewis might do better coming in at something like 220 lbs.

 

Well the addition of muslce mass would give him more power.

If ali had big time power, whats to say he wouldnt switch to a swarming style?

 

I dont think he would have the stature to make a good swarmer even today.

He might however become a boxer puncher.

 

the boxer puncher style and steroids might ruin his longevity, or without his focus on defense, his chin might fail him.

 

We are getting into a lot of ifs and buts here.

What I was trying to say was that if you remove the diference between the training regimes of Ali and Bowe/Lewis the physical differnces narrow for better or worse.

 

you assume they narrow.

who knows what the **** might happen?

 

We know this:

Ali gets bigger on Lewis's training regime.

Lewis gets smaller on Ali's training regime.

Their height and reach remain the same.

I honestly dont know who either scenario would favour

 

As you know, a past-it Folley was pretty successful countering against a peak Ali. And, though of similar dimensions, he was no Johnson, I hope you agree. Quarry's big left hook was not Johnson's style at all.

Johnson did not use a more modern guard, but he was properly positioned in his own "catching" style to block the Ali jab and counter. If Norton could block and counter Ali, Johnson could do it better. This was part of Johnson's bread and butter and, again, Ali simply refused to keep his right up, bad news against a fast, accurate opponent such as Johnson.
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By neutralizing Ali in the clinch I mean not permitting the Greatest to manhandle and stall, but to rip the uppercut up the middle.

Stepping up against a covering Terrell, Ali's lack of an attack to body and head reduced him to swinging one-twos and occasional single hooks all night to Terrell's arms. Of course Ali won on points, but he never really hurt Ernie. My point is, because of styles, Ali's best moments come against onrushing foes, not unspontaneous technicians.

Ali's unique style would be a challenge for anyone in history. But I respect fundamentals as the one key to successful adaptation and Jack Johnson possessed very sound fundamentals and a fantastic boxing IQ. I like his chances against the Lip.

Poor "Arthur"! Even Ali got on his case for indulging in the pleasures of the white woman!

 

It also depends on the distance. Lewis's training regime is better suited for 12. Over 15 it's less clear.

 

Haven't read the whole thread, but these two fighters jump out at me when I think of fighters who could beat Ali. I also think if the circumstances were different, Foreman could potentially beat him as well. But I do think Holmes and Lewis have the best chance, and Tyson MIGHT be able to overwhelm him in the first 2-3 rounds.