Who beats Ali? No hedging your bets, who do YOU pick to straight up beat him?

Ouch. That cuts deep. Say hi to ya mum for me.

 

McCall and Rahman... H/W legends????? What a joke.

 

They are not legends, but would have done very well in the 60's & 70's

 

Its clearly stated in the clowns opening line. McCall didnt do well in his own career. He is an overrated, one punch wonder. He got lucky against Lewis... and cried like a little girl in the second fight. How would FOTC Frazier tackle him???
Joe thrived on punishing any opponent.. His nature, stlye, hunger and determination would leave McCall-an-ambulance in hysterical tears.

Golota is the most pitiful excuse of a potential heavyweight champ... no mental stability at all.. He should have taken the crown from Bowe... had it in the bag, until he tried to remove Bowes bag. Ali would have him in fits at the weigh in... let alone in the actual fight.

"my dinner with Conteh" may have had a few nose fulls for dessert...

 

But Ali's prefight antics would have had no affect on Lewis.

 

Perhaps not. Lewis is intelligent. Ali was a ring genious though. Adapted his style to accomodate all comers. He took a better punch than Lewis, had better skills (in every aspect) than Lewis, faster than Lewis, more stanima than Lewis, prepared better than Lewis... and unlike Lewis, would have a game plan designed to beat him. Not just relying on a bomb...ala Rahman.. to beat Lewis. Clay 66-67 wouldnt lay on the ropes as lewis pawed with his jab looking for an opening, like so many other allowed him too. A straight right lead, much like the Foreman fight would keep Lewis at bay, or off timing. I cant see Lewis beating Clay. Enough said. Thanks for the offerings mate. Appreciated, yet, I agree to disagree.

 

I know it's a cliche but I think THAT version of Tyson would beat him. Just a feeling.

Cassius Clay wasn't huge.....he would've cut Marciano to shreds but you can never count out The Rock at landing one of those right hands which could probably smash any HW from around that era out cold. Ali on the other hand beats Marciano comprehensively.

Holmes would have a chance. His jab would frustrate even the young Clay.

Can't think of any others I'd pick to beat him. Ali was stronger and more wiley, but Clay was faster, more elusive (in movement rather than defensive guarding i.e vs. Foreman) and would frustrate nearly everyone.....not many I'd pick to definitely beat him.

But the focused Tyson that was smashing through opponents like Berbick would have a very good chance against Ali/Clay; not because Berbick is anywhere near comparable to him, but that beast could clearly do that to anyone. Ali's tendency to be macho would get him into a war, and if Frazier could hurt and even drop Ali, then the younger, to a degree SMALLER Clay, would find himself badly hurt against Kid Dynamite.

But as a huge Ali fan I'd like to think that he could beat anyone H2H!

 

But that was my point! You can point to examples in both fighter's career. You can say Norton and be countered by McCall. So that's really not productive. At the end of the day, though, most would agree that Ali's best wins (Liston, Foreman, Frazier) are superior to Lewis best wins (Tyson, Holyfield, Vitaly?) and that Ali never surrendered to mediocre opponents like Lewis did to McCall and Rahman.

But both had great careers and you can make a point for either one winning this.

By the way, that version of Holyfield would not beat peak Ali.

Why would this be an easy fight when the fights against Mercer, Bruno and (old) Holyfield wasn't?

Did you watch the fight yesterday? Valuev had 100 lbs and 10 inches on Holyfield, as well as being 10 years younger, but he still needed extremely generous judges to win.

Sure, size helps. But it isn't everything. There's still good HW:s around that's not huge

If it was that logical, why then did Holyfield and Tyson do so well in an era of superheavies? You're really oversimplifying. For example, the opponents that gave Ali the most trouble were generally smaller than him.

 

Ali would have a tough time with a fit Frazier all the time and Marciano would be a real tough fight for him. Dempsey because of his hook and speed would trouble Ali and Walcott because of his slickness and Hook....Norton was a style that troubled him and the smaller faster guys with stamina that Ali had trouble with ...he owned the big slow power guys who depended on raw strength

 

Tyson did well because he was exceptional - never before had there been anything like him, with his natural speed and power combined with a great defense and combination punching. His hand speed was on par with Ali.

Holyfield was great and as I have said - I'd pick him to beat Ali. But he struggled with guys like Lewis & Bowe. But also he is a diiferent type of fighter to Ali.

As I said good big fighters will beat good small fighters everytime.

Ali never fought anyone over 225lbs (cant really include Mathis because he was blubber) most opponents are around 200lbs. His whole career he was facing men that would be considering a move down to Cruiserweight today with the exception of an handful of fighters. In fact Ali was a big heavyweight in his day and almost always bigger than his opponents.

LL on the otherhand only fought 2 men under 200lbs most opponents where over 230lbs. Prime Lewis was around 250lbs - taking the Grant fight as a reference point.

 

You also have guys like Toney, RJJ and Byrd making their mark in the division.

Anf it the 90's generation was so superior, how come Foreman (who you obviously don't rate) could come back when over 40 and after a 10 year lay-off?

And if Lewis had Ali's skill speed, skill and workrate I wouldn't hesitate to pick him over Ali. But he didn't.

But still it was the smaller opponents that caused him more trouble. Terrell, Bugner, Lewis etc wasn't difficult opponents for him. By your reasoning it wouldn't be possible that Jones could cause Clay far more trouble than Liston did, but...

And you're forgetting that Lewis fought NO ONE that resembled peak Ali. A guy who would have only quite small disadvantages in reach and height, but substanstial advantages in speed, mobility and work rate. Lewis would find it hard to dictate the pace because of this and his game relied heavily on dictating the pace.

Lewis who was outboxed at times by both Bruno and Mercer, and given stiff opposition by old Holyfield would somehow just walk all over Ali? When did he ever show that ability against an opponent with even half of Ali's speed and mobility? And a guy who took the best Shavers and Foreman could offer wouldn't crumble the first time Lewis lands either.

 

RJJ Toney etc did not cause any ripples where Lewis is concerned.

Bugner was useless so you can't compare him as was Terrell who was the same weight as Ali. As I said Ali was usually the bigger man so he could bully people or mess around.

 

Man, you just don't get the message, do you? Being the bigger man didn't always make it easier for Ali. The opponents that gave him most trouble at his peak (Chuvalo, Mildenberger and Folley) were all smaller than him. But his biggest opponents during this time (Liston, Williams, Terrell) hardly gave him any trouble at all. They all had long reaches and good jabs, but failed to land anything significant.

This doesn't really compute with your theory about bigger being better, does it? Neither does Valuev's perfomance yesterday, by the way.

And if we look at Lewis, he blitzed big, immobile guys like Golota and Ruddock, but didn't get Holyfield off of his feet in 24 rounds.

You can huff and puff about size until you get blue in the face, but the fact is that size and power wasn't that which troubled Ali the most (Liston, Williams and Foreman being his biggest and most powerful opponents).

Rather it was high workrate, pressure and a bobbing or crouching style. Lewis would certainly try to apply pressure, but his workrate was less than most of Ali's opponents and his straight backed posture was something that Ali usually feasted on. His power and reach would of course be assets, though.

Lewis was at his best against big, immobile guys like Rudddock, Morrison, Golota, Botha etc. The nearest he came to a peak Ali was old Holyfield, and those fights were not among his most impressive perfomances.

This is factors you also has to take into the equation. Just hanging on to that Lewis was bigger, stronger and more powerful isn't much of an analysis at all, really.

 

Get an idea mate. Rahman and McCall are 1 & 2 all-time.

 

Oops, there he goes again. :yep