Who beats Ali? No hedging your bets, who do YOU pick to straight up beat him?

Prime Tyson or Lewis?

 

When did Lewis truly PRIME????? He remains a hard to fathom fighter.... IMO...

 

I agree prime Tyson and Lewi. Holyfield would give him hell and prime Bowe would also.

 

I must say, Johnson is the ATG I would give the least chance against Ali. He was too stationary and too open. Leaning back from Ali's punches while staying flat-footed would be a terrible mistake IMO. Ali was great at adapting and he would quickly use that to his advantage. Over 15 I can't see a single advantage for Johnson to be honest. When it comes to Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Tyson, Holmes, Lewis etc I see aspects of their game that might make things difficult for Ali, but I don't see any when it comes to Johnson.

He excelled against the complete opposite type of fighter. Small guys that came to him and that he could pick off on the inside. Ali was bigger, faster and would move in and out with raking straight lefts and rights to the head. Terrible match-up for Johnson.

 

No one did that to Marciano, people may cite the Walcott fight, but that was a close fight, and Marciano cut up Walcott pretty bad before the 13th round. Even close his eye. So not even Walcott did it with ease. I dont think Ali would do it with ease either, Marciano is going to get his licks in, so will Ali of couse. I think it would be a hard fight for both of em. Even Ali said that would be a hard task to over come vs a Marciano fight, so I take Ali's word for it. Not to mention Ali's shock on Marciano's abilily to over come his jab for that computer fight.

 

about ali dancing for 15 rounds. he only went that distance twice in the 60s v Chuvalo and Terrell. Anyway some footage from the last rounds i just found on utube re Chuvalo.

[YT]h2ut_2v4npU[/YT]

12th v Patterson. he's planting his feet now and not dancing so he can get more power in to his punches and stop his man. doesn't mean ali couldn't have dance that round if he needed to do so. he did this against Terrell, less dancing and more punishment.

[YT]c_4tW99hFTk[/YT]

 

Chuvalo still gave Ali a bad body beating in that first fight.

 

In the early stages Ali invited Chuvalo to punch to his body. But it's true that Chuvalo managed to reach Ali more than most other opponents did back then, and therefore it's somewhat foolish to completely write off for example Marciano's chances against Ali.

Doubtfull if Rocky could have taken the same beating without being stopped on cuts, though.

 

Think the cut thing is over played with Marciano.

Outside of Ezzard Charles the 2nd time, Marciano was never close to being stop on cuts. Sure his right eye always seem to cut, but thats because he injured it in his 5 or 6 pro fight, and it never heal right, thus that old wound was always reopen in later fights. But it was not bad to stop a fight on that cut over the right.

 

No one. I wouldn't make any more than a 50/50 against prime Ali.

 

Thanks for the interesting video of Ali/Chuvalo. I think looking at that it isn't hard to imagine Marciano in that spot. I do not believe Ali could have offered his body to Rocky's blows. And if Ali thought Chuvalo was tough...!

Looks to me like Chuvalo is out of gas. Seems very little power in the blows. I think Marciano would have put Ali away with similar shots and was a far harder puncher as he leveraged his whole body into the blows.

Of course, Ali would have to have change his tactics with Marciano. But will he run from Marciano the whole fight? For my money, Marciano would catch up with him. Especially, as in the last round, when Ali plays tough and stands to punch with Chuvalo. That's when he catches it.

Yes, a TKO is a possibility since Marciano bleeds. That is Ali's best chance of winning. But he would not have taken the fight out of Marciano.

 

Just the fact that when speaking of Ali's :"prime" we have to limit it to what? Less than half a year? Proves that it is a misnomer. Ali's prime is a projection in itself. So we can only look at the best that we saw of Ali, still good enough to rank him number one amongst many, in the top five amongst most. Pretty impressive, I'd go as far as to call him a prodigy, and to those who would disagree, what would you give to have the likes of him today?

However, so inspired were some of his performances throughout his career, especially those where he had to be at his best or was certain to take a profound beating, that we do have some "prime Ali" to look at; Ali could be at his prime during anytime, since his primary strength had little to do with his physical state, and everything to do with his mental/spiritual state on that night...

That said, we know Frazier could beat Ali at his best, he did! Ali fought his heart out all three times with Joe and Joe gave him all he wanted and then some. I think Foreman on another night could have stayed centered and not allow Ali to make the fool out of him he did in Zaire; Foreman was not a smart fighter in Africa. He did become a thinking fighter later in his career. And speaking of thinking, prescient fighters, many have mentioned Rocky Marciano, in my opinion one of the smartest fighters ever, in any division. Watching his fights it's easy to miss, because there certainly was nothing dazzling in his style, nothing frenetic in his pursuit; I think someone earlier challenged the assertion that the Rock was a swarmer. In the strict sense of the term I'd say he was not. He didn't swarm, as much as sneak in; the guy was elusive. Small and compact for a heavyweight, I think the Rock found his style in his limitations, in his deficits, always something to take into consideration besides your assets. If you notice, Marciano was paper thin, crouched to a whisper and always aware of the shots coming at him while sliding inside. And at the same time he was one of the most offensively minded fighters; those hands were cocked, ready to unload shots that if he had his way, would go right through you.

Mike Tyson had a shot, had a realistic shot of taking anybody out if he was in a good mood. If he could keep his cool and was well within himself. Mike, it's almost an outrageous statement to make today, given what we all know happened to him in time, but Mike Tyson once had a realistic shot of becoming one of the greats of all time. And I know many will disagree, but I would still give him "a shot" against any of the heavyweight I've seen ... IF... he was in a good place mentally that night.

The only other guy I've seen enough of to think he might have a shot with a prime Ali, and I admit it may be partly due to my bias for his elusive style, was Jersey Joe Walcott. A guy that Ali learned much from, had a lateral movement that could have possibly even confused a boxer like Ali. His lead right down the middle, after turning his guy left, right, farther right then full around to the point of exacerbation, may even have found a target in Ali, a guy who was expert at the same thing himself.

The short answer, (I know it's too late for that), is that Ali was the most impressive of all heavyweights that I know enough about to have an opinion. He had handspeed, fluid footwork, (can't even call it WORK with him), a jab second to none in his division, a right hand that could take your head off, uncanny accuracy with either hand, recuperative power, or just call it a chin, 'cause he rebounded so well, so thoroughly, that you had to question whether he had actually taken the big shots you thought he did. And that point speaks to his greatest strength ... I'll throw a few terms out, you pick the one that works for you... heart, spirit, transcendence, will, desire, passion, magic, whatever you want to call it, they are all the same to me.

 

well mr funny duddy, let's say his peak years were from 1964-67 - 3 years. AFTER EXILE He wasn't peak or regained his very best which everyone seems to agree with except you. Even Eddie Futch agreed and called that version of Ali the greatest ever heavy AND he trained Frazier and Norton who Ali had his hardest fights with AFTER EXILE.

 

I haven't read all the posts (don't have time) but there is someone who could smoosh the ''mid 66-67'' version of Ali---big time!

The 68-69 Ali!!!!!!!!

I know, I know, don't start.....:bbb:yep:happy

 

Don't you mean FUDDY duddy? Where did I say that Ali achieved his best after his exile? But I do think that he had some brilliant performances in the 70's. I get the feeling you got the idea I was putting Ali down, when I clearly stated in my book he was the best heavy I've ever seen.