Who beats prime Ali?

You have a point, but Vitaly was also extremely good at controlling range. The Klits are the best at controlling range that I've seen of those bigger than Ali. But you may be right that low hands and leaning back could well backfire against Ali's lightning quick jabs and right crosses, especially since he was so good at moving in and out in his prime.

 

Yeah, the view that Liston was past his prime in 1964 is a strange one. Was it a past prime Liston that crushed Patterson a second time in 1963 or did he for some reason age terribly during those seven months?

I can buy that he wasn't in the best of shape for Clay and severly underestimated him, but past prime? That's more of a made up ESB "fact", since nothing really points to it.

 

Post the footage showing Langford having a chance, please.

Johnson wouldn't stand much of a chance. Straight back, squared upper body, low hands, flat footed and no head movement. I've tons of respect for what Jack did in his day, but Ali would eat him up.

Dempsey had good head movement for his day, but no guard. He had trouble getting inside Carpentier's right and was given a boxing lesson by Tunney. My bet is that Ali would do him worse than he did Patterson, who had a better defense and was even faster.

 

Didn't Vitali start off as a kickboxer and did quite well initially? I've never seen any of his kickboxing fights but wouldn't you expect someone with that kind of background to be quite good with their movement and footwork yet you never really see that in his boxing?

 

He did, and as you say I think he was quite good. I don't think his footwork is bad though, it is just more normal for a man that size. It is just that Wlad's movement is extraordinary for a man that big, so for me Vitali's looks poor in comparision.

 

True, also I guess it is different leaning back when you are that tall, Ali would have problems hitting him clean. Vitali was also quite good at fighting on the backfoot, and, I believe, a better tactician than some of the big monsters Ali faced. If he chooses to box behind his jab his reach advantage will force Ali to be the aggressor, something he wasnt always comfortable with. If he, on the other hand comes out more aggressive and tries to KO him, I see Ali cruising to a decision. He loved nothing more than being chased by big, slower guys.

 

Patterson was faster than Dempsey. He had amongst if not the very fastest hands of any HW, maybe faster than Ali in some punches.His leaping left "Gazelle" punch involved very fast feet.

I have never heard it suggested that Liston was prime in '64. Though his age was exaggerated sometimes, he was aging, & 7 months can make a big difference. Not just in being a little older, but if you get out of shape when older, that easily can end your prime. Lewis was significantly reduced & too heavy against Vitali.

Liston was never pushed by Patterson, who was stylistically out of his element & intimidated. Thus you did not see if he lost anythig. But his very peak was likely not after '60 at least.

 

It certainly wasn't suggested he was past his prime at the time. And unlike Lewis he'd continue fighting for another 5-6 years.

 

Both true. But that was before the fight, & he was not fighting often & not pushed by Patterson, & you add coming in in less than ideal shape & complacent, that is a fatal blow for an aging fighter re: staying in prime time.

boxing for some more years really says nothing about primes, which tend to be no more than 3-4 years. Holmes boxed into his 50's & pretty well, he could not beat the very top guys, but might take or give a good fight to the top contenders, ditto a slow Foreman until 48 when he was robbed against Briggs & retired!

 

I'm not saying he was at his absolute peak, but shouldn't a fighter be considered prime until it has been proven otherwise? The idea that Liston was passed is just based on his loss against Ali. I repeat: he was the champion, unbeaten for ten years, and coming of his best win. Sure Pattersson had the wrong style for Liston, he was still the best fighter he faced and Liston destroyed him. I know we are not sure about his age, and some people claim he was close to 40. But that is just guessing, the official year is 32, and since we don't know there is no point in using his age to estimate weather he was prime or not. He went on to win 14 straight fights after, all but one by ko or tko. Maybe he was an old man and passed it, but there is nothing substanitial to base it on. Ali beat a great fighter that everyone considered prime.

 

Well, the thing still is that no one thought he was past prime at the time. That is something made up ENTIRELY on the fact of how easy Clay handled him. Actually he was expected to dominate for many years, and there is also nothing to suggest he wouldn't have if not for Clay/Ali.

 

This.

 

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