I've always thought prime Joe Louis has the stuff to (maybe get off the canvas a few times and) complete this job.
When at his best and non-complacent, I’d say very few. We’ve seen him take apart plenty of punchers and big men in his day. What I would have liked to have seen is how he’d fair against a master boxer like a Holmes or Ali.
We have to go through this again ? I'm not saying lewis would always lose but in one fight, i believe with Foreman's chin and his excellent ability to cut the ring off, lennox would not be able to keep george at bay. If this one turns into a slugfest.......well Foreman was simply a stronger, harder puncher with a better chin.
Foreman was not stronger, nor was he a harder puncher. And if we are talking about 70s Foreman, I don't even think he had a better chin. Similar to Ali, when looking at Foreman a lot of posters tend to combine the assets of 70s Foreman with those of 90s Foreman. 90s Foreman was bigger, paced himself better and had a much better chin. You do not get to take that chin and apply it onto 70s Foreman.
Lewis has many above average to great ratings for most attributes which makes him so deadly in h2h fights. Power, skill, timing, ring IQ, are all great. Stamina and hand speed decent for a big man. A little lacking in toughness but he was above average in that as well. His main weakness was focus or the lack thereof in some fights, pawing with his jab, and could occasionally become repetitive. A sharp counter puncher with a good chin could give him serious problems. That being said, guys like Holmes and Witherspoon immediately come to mind. The question is who beats prime Lewis and that begs the question, who is prime Lewis? If you mean his athletic prime this would actually be before teaming up with Steward and he certainly didn't look invincible then. He actually looked fairly beatable against Tucker, Bruno, and literally lost to McCall. The thing is, even post McCall with Steward in his corner he had some fights that were very close calls (Holyfield and Mercer some argue could have gone the other way), a brief moment of weakness getting unofficially dropped by Briggs, or, again, an actual loss to Rahman when he was a seasoned veteran with plenty of experience and had a glaring flaw losing almost the same exact way twice. Point being, as formidable as Lennox was, at no point did he look "invincible". People can say Ali's signature win where he looked absurdly good would be against Williams, Terrel, etc. Louis looked amazing against Braddock, Baer, etc. What was Lewis amazing moment(s) against an elite/prime opponent? The only things that comes to mind would be the Tua shutout or the Ruddock blowout. Is that enough to put him in the conversation of the truly elite, borderline "invincible" peak moments enjoyed by other champions in h2h discussions? I'm not sure. Lewis resume is tricky because it's more quantity over quality similar to Mayweather. Lewis best A class opponents were past their prime (Tyson and Hoylfield) and happened much later than they should have. He also missed Bowe who would have probably been his biggest test as a fellow elite super heavyweight (blame whoever you want, the point remains it didn't happen and would have answered many questions about how he'd do against the more recent behemoths). Sure there's the nice sendoff fight against Vitali, where a far past his prime Lewis dig deep to beat a future hall of Fame worthy champion, but you can't include that fight and then ignore some of the flaws he displayed against Vitali. Lewis was very uncomfortable against a guy taller than him with comparable raw strength and guts and had to target the cut to avoid a potential decision loss (or gassing and getting stopped). So back to Holmes and Witherspoon, I would argue that at their absolute best, based on styles, I'd favor the two of them to beat Lewis. They would give him fits with their nimble footwork, high ring IQ, sharp counters, responsible defense, and high work rate. They could potentially win the jab war and frustrate him. They lacked the destructive power.of Rahman, but both possessed sharp right hands to nail Lewis when he dropped that left. Late 60's Ali I favor over just about everyone more or less, including Lewis. He'd be in and out constantly fighting at a high rate that could drain the big man. He'd be there one second, then across the ring the next second. His right cross lead would give Lewis nightmares due to him pawing it out. Lewis' long arms would become a weakness since he is slower and it would take him longer to retract them after extending them giving Ali a split second to pop him with a quick shot of his own. Ali's main weakness was a left hook and Lewis left hook wasn't that great. I think Lewis would shy away from targeting the body since doing so gives the shorter Ali opportunities. Less body punching means more Ali dancing as he pleases. There are plenty of guys who I think are 50:50 with Lewis at his best. Prime Liston. Prime Hoylfield in particular would be interesting since past his prime Hoylfield brought the heat and did very well. Peak Wladmir with his own cloned Steward in his corner is 50:50. Bowe is potentially 50:50 and a fascinating matchup.
If you're talking about Spinks/Tyson or Foreman/Norton invincible, maybe not. I elect the Michael Grant fight as the closest he came (that is, if the second Rahman fight doesn't count).
Yes, Lewis destroyed Ruddock. But, by then, the Razor was damaged goods whereas Frazier was an undefeated champ.
About 2 months ago. One thing i should have added is that evander is not the only fighter who got into the ring with both lewis and foreman and ranked foreman higher than lewis in terms of power and physical strength. Shannon briggs is another example.
???..foreman in the 1990's did not have a better chin than his younger self, just because he went zero times to the canvas during his second run doesn't mean he managed to improve his chin. I mean the knockdowns in the Ali and Jimmy young fights were due to exhaustion, and ron Lyle was, by Foreman's own admission, the best puncher he has ever faced in his career. As for foreman being much bigger in the 90's, i believe "fatter or in a worse shape" would be the right word.
I agree. Lewis avenging a loss to Rahman, a B level opponent who he shouldn't have lost to in the first place, can't possibly be nominated as a match where Lewis looked "invincible". It's almost as ridiculous as nominating Wladmir avenging his loss to Brewster as a match where Wladmir looked invincible. To be fair to Lewis, Ruddock was ranked #1 ahead of Lewis and was the 2-1 favorite. His stock was still high because even though he lost to Tyson, Ruddock was the only man to stand toe to toe with him in an exciting slug fest. Lewis demolishing him in just 2 rounds is remarkable given the context. I wouldn't say Ruddock was damaged goods either, that's a bit of an exaggeration as he was still only 28, a top ranked contender, and had recently beaten Page.
Yes he did have a better chin. The extra mass makes one more durable and increase one's ability to absorb a punch. He was 217 lbs in the 70s, 250 lbs + in the 90s.
