Who did better vs Frank Moran? Jack Johnson or Jess Willard?

Upon Jennette’s death, the great Hudson County sportswriter "Lud" Shahbazian wrote the following article: Boxers of Yesteryear in Tribute to Jennette as ‘Great Fighter’


“He was a great fighter. His record shows that. Anybody who stood up to the likes of Jack Johnson and Sam Langford as he did- and as often as he did- had to be a great fighter.” “It’s a shame he never got a chance at the heavyweight championship.” “Once Jack Johnson won the heavyweight title he wanted no part of Joe Jennette. It wasn’t that way when Johnson was hungry.”

Hudson Dispatch July 3, 1958

Sam Langford called Joe Jennette the gamest boxer he ever met. Jack Johnson called Jennette the toughest man he ever faced.

Johnson regarded Sam McVea and Joe Jennette as being the greatest men he ever fought.

Champions of the Ring by Gerald Suster

Nat Fleischer, who some argue is the greatest boxing historian of all time, said: “Jack Johnson often remarked to me that the man who gave him one of the toughest battles he ever had, was Joe Jeannette, and Joe was then only a novice.”

Black Dynamite “Fighting Furies” by Nat Fleischer

Johnson stated: “Joe Jeannette is a tough fighting proposition. I’m not afraid to face him in a ring, but I would much rather fight Sam Langford or Sam McVey.”

Kalamazoo Gazette August 21, 1912

Johnson also stated: “Jeannette is the toughest man I ever fought and the hardest to hurt. Why the more I hit that man the stronger he got. No wonder he beat Sam McVea in a finish battle.”

Jersey Journal September 30, 1910

Sam Langford always said Jennette gave him the: “toughest fights.” Langford stated: “Joe Jeannette, to my way of thinking, was the toughest man in the ring.”

Telegram April 23, 1911

“Jeannette ain’t human. I’d rather fight Johnson twenty rounds then Jeannette ten.”

Sam Langford * Oswego Daily Times September 2, 1911

“You’re not human, you win Joe, my eyes are closed, and I can’t see you anymore: it’s your fight.”

Evening Telegram January 7, 1923

Asked how Louis compared with some of the old champs. Langford gave his opinion that the Detroit Bomber would have stopped Jack Johnson in 10 rounds; would have beat Wills in one round and would have had his toughest battle with Joe Jeanette.

JACK JOHNSON'S ALL - TIME RANKING LIST - TOP 12

#1. BOB FITZSIMMONS
#5. SAM LANGFORD
#6. SAM MCVEY
#7. JOE JEANNETTE
#11. GENE TUNNEY
#12. JACK DEMPSEY

In the article Johnson would say:

"You will notice that I have placed Tunney and Dempsey far down the list. I did for the very good reason that they don't belong with the old-timers at all. Tunney hailed as the marvel of boxing skill by the youngsters of today, was only a fair boxer. Joe Jeannette would have boxed rings around him."

 

Suster's book is filled with inaccuracies, I was re-reading it this week.
The problem with any quote concerning the Johnson/ Jeannette fights is that for every negative one regarding Johnson ,[usually the Police Gazette],you can find two positive ones from ringside papers.
Johnson in two auto- biographies emphatically stated McVey was his toughest opponent and he named Langford next.
Bottom line, Jeannette only beat Johnson once, on that disputed foul, he never succeeded in flooring him whereas Johnson had him down several times even in abbreviated fights.
Jeannette fancied his chances in a fight over the longer haul yet in their only 15rounder he was beaten.

Here is another take on their Portland fight.

"The local paper called it a draw, though it also said Johnson was the cleverer boxer and ring general and slightly outclassed Jeannette. "Research done by Adam Pollack.


Johnson also fared significantly better over their common opponents. I have never seen a respected writer pick Jeannette to beat Johnson if both were in their respective primes.
Johnson had imo, better boxing ability, better defence,and a harder punch,therefore I must pick him if both men met in their prime.
You can argue Jeannette improved later, you can equally argue so did Johnson.
As Johnson dissipated and aged Jeannette may have been able to top him at the end of his reign but as with Langford I think Johnson knowing the calibre of his challenger would be in appreciably better shape than he was for the likes of Moran and Flynn .
Langford himself was often out of shape when he fought Jeannette.

I place no credence on Langford or Jeannette's remarks concerning Johnson, both hated him and therefore would be as objective concerning him as Mendoza is on here.

Jeannette never said a good word about Johnson ,and accused him of deliberately fouling him,he conveniently neglected to mention deliberately butting Johnson in one fight, cutting open his eye.
You will find that in quotes Johnson was appreciably more generous towards Langford and Jeannette than either ever were towards him.
Jeannete was very" selective" about his comments stating he only weighed 165lbs for their last fight BS! He had weighed 185lbs a year earlier against Jack, and weighed the same 5 months after their bout to fight McVey.
Likewise the reach handicap is nonsense ,both were 74 inches.
I take his remarks with a huge pinch of salt.
Nice talking with you.

 

I'm out of ammunition? I've not even started! Do you want to answer my question? What rounds do you give Moran out of the half a dozen complete ones that exist? Or will you coninue to ignore it?
Moran fouled Johnson many times in their fight he continually rabbit punched him ,butted him and attempted to back hand him.
You say Ed Morbius always nails it? Well he picks Johnson as doing better than Willard! Thats two posters now that have called you a bigot Klompton, and myself.
Matt Donnellon called this thread an agenda driven one and it blatantly is . Your problem is no one agrees with you!
You are a sad piece of work.

 

It is NOT clear that Johnson fouled read Adam's book you fool!

There was a great deal of dispute whether it was a foul or not,as ringside contemporary papers stated.
NB The Police Gazette did NOT have a reporter there!

When were Langford or Jeannette ever "old friends "of Johnson's? Both hated him and never missed an opportunity to disparage him ,similar to yourself really!
Both picked Jeffries to emphatically beat Johnson and both were made to look like the ridiculously biased filled fools they were when Johnson beat the **** out of him .Where was their racial solidarity then?
Langford scaled 156lbs against Johnson and Johnson185lbs, Langford was the more experienced fighter .
.
You mention Clay Moyle? He probably knows more about Langford than anyone ,how inconvenient for you that, prime for prime he picks Johnson to beat Langford!

You can spin as many tales as you like and repeat the same old lies ad nauseum.

Burns broke Johnson's ribs.
Burns had jaundice.
Jeannette scaled 165lbs for the last Johnson fight.
Johnson fouled Jeannette because he was losing.
The Jim Johnson fight was scheduled for 20 rounds but abbreviated to 10 to save Jack's title .
Johnson had his title taken away by the French Boxing Board because of his fight with Battling Jim.
Johnson picked Jeffries as the greatest heavyweight.
Battling Jim was in front and deserved the win.
Jeffries was level in his first fight with Jim Corbett .
Jeffries was holding his own with Johnson until he tired.
You've seen the Lanford Hague fight.
Johnson can clearly be seen sporting a black eye in the Ketchel fight [This one is especially hilarious]

Lennox Lewis weighed in fully clothed for the Vitali fight.
Lewis had more time than Vitali to prepare for their fight.
You offered to send me a message via e mail to arrange a fight.
[I have the original communication it was regarding the Johnson v Choynski fight]

These and about 20 more tales you've told and repeated over your time here.
You're in a universe of your own, Planet Mendoza

A liar and a bigot.

 

You and everyone on this forum would be happier if you just got a dartboard and put Johnson's picture in the middle and went town on it a couple of times a day.

 

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Joe Jennette’s first manager was George Armstrong of New York City, who managed Jennette from 1905 until November of 1907. Armstrong was the manager of the Palace Theater and was associated with other Athletic Clubs, like the Sharkey, A.C., Knickerbocker A.C., and the Pastime A.C., just to name a few. He managed boxers way before he ever met Jennette. He was connected with Tom Sharkey and Bob Armstrong putting on boxing shows in the 1890’s. George Armstrong has stated many times in newspapers the weight of his fighter Joe Jennette.

On January 5, 1906 George Armstrong issued a press release:

Joe Jeannette, through his manager, George Armstrong, has issued a challenge to Jack O’Brien. Jeannette weighs about 165 pounds, and agrees to make that weight. His easy victory over Sam Langford at Lawrence opened the eyes of some of the fight followers. But they evidently forgot that he won from Jack Johnson, and had all the better of a go with the “Pink Pajama Man” until Jack remembered how Sandy Ferguson lost; and fouled Jeannette. Armstrong ridicules the claims that Jeannette had twenty pounds on Langford. He declares “Laughing Ho Ho Sam” is a middleweight, and that he would have hard work to weigh in under 155 pounds. Jeannette has a fine record and has defeated Jim Jeffords and other heavy men. Armstrong realizes that O’Brien has drawn the color line, although why at this late day he cannot understand, for he has met George Cole, Young Peter Jackson and others in the ring.

Washington D.C. Evening Star January 5, 1906

[There is a lone newspaper article of Joe Jennette weighing 185 pounds versus Sam MacVey 208 pounds in their first fight on April 15, 1907, Jennette being outweighed by 23 pounds.]


Late in 1949, the great Joe Jennette had to close down his gymnasium. Jennette had suffered a stroke, it was the end of his days as one of the great trainers of fighters from 1924 until 1949, and that includes during his fighting days, where he trained hundreds of fighters, even most of the great white hopes.

On July 18, 1951, “Jersey” Joe Walcott won the world’s heavyweight championship in his fifth try. He defeated Ezzard Charles by knockout in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. After his victory a testimonial dinner was held on his behalf. Joe Jennette was invited to attend and speak at the event but his deteriorating health prevented him from doing so. Jennette’s dear friend, sportswriter Lud Shahbazian, offered to speak on his behalf. Lud spoke of his career and how Jack Johnson completely ignored him after he became champion, refusing to even say hello to him in public for over four years. At the end of Lud’s speech he turned to Walcott and softly spoke:

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Hudson Dispatch August 25, 1949/ Notes from Lud Shahbazian’s speech at Joe Walcott testimonial

Joe was a phenomenal athlete. He could have played in any sport today. He was trained by some of the greatest masters in sports history, in sports such as baseball, basketball, boxing, handball, and wrestling. He played shortstop on the Jersey City Giants and barnstormed with the Southsiders of Pittsburgh and had as a teammate Honus Wagner, the greatest baseball player of his time. He even played on a Jersey City basketball team alongside the great baseball player Hal Chase, player/manager of the New York Highlanders/New York Yankees. Jennette played on the Olympia Athletic Club Basketball Team, Champions in 1908. On his team he had fellow boxers Connie Schmidt and Al Benedict. He even started his own semi-pro team, it was called “Joe Jennette’s Jersey City Basketball Team” one of the best in the Country. He was even taught by the greatest handball player of the time, Mike Egan of Jersey City. Mike Egan a fighter himself who also trained and sparred with many great fighters, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, Corbett… it was Egan who was hired by James J. Jeffries for his comeback against Jack Johnson…Jeffries like Jennette could play a mean game of handball. Last and not least was the greatest light-weight wrestler in US History, George Bothner, it was Bothner who spotted Jennette early in 1904 at an Athletic Club in Union Hill, New Jersey. Jennette learned how to wrestle and it was Bothner who later tagged up with Jennette’s second manager Billy Elmer in a fitness club called Bothner and Elmer A.C., Anyway, it was Joseph Knipe out of the Pastime A.C. one of the greatest amateur heavyweight boxing champions in history, and a teacher of famous fighters like Bob Fitzsimmons and many others, including Joe Jennette alongside Freddie Welsh on the art of boxing and the mastering of the “

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”.

Joe Jennette in my opinion was the

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. Joe Jennette transcended the sport by breaking barriers, becoming the first man to fight the injustice of a color line on both sides, black and white, having been born into a biracial family.

After, Joe Jennette’s fighting career was over, he always remained friends with all members of The Big Four, until the day they died. Langford, MacVey and yes, Johnson.

When Jack Johnson was released from prison it was Joe Jennette along with Sam MacVey who helped organize a Hero’s Parade in Harlem.

On July 9, 1921, Jack Johnson was released from prison. Upon his release Jack was given a hero’s parade in Harlem on July 22nd. The Harrisburg Patriot described Johnson’s arrival:

Jack Johnson arrived in New York today and was welcomed in Harlem with much ado by several thousand Negroes. Two brass bands blared forth as the pugilist stepped from a train from Chicago. A parade was immediately started up Lennox Avenue.

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When asked of his thoughts on current champion Jack Dempsey, Johnson flashed his gold teeth smile and replied: “Jack Dempsey? He’s just a caretaker champion.”

Harrisburg Patriot July 23, 1921.

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The November 1945 exhibition started out with photo shots of Jack and Joe, along with the promoter and the referee Harry Wills. Wills was another great black boxer who never received a title shot. Some of the names in attendance included Damon Runyon, Frankie Genaro, Joe DiMaggio, Johnny Dundee, Joe Batty, Mickey Walker, “Knockout” Brown, “Soldier” Bartfield, “Young” Otto, Abe Attell and hundreds of others. After the photos, Jack and Joe clowned their way through the first round, as those in attendance laughed and cheered them on. When the bell rang for the second round wthey started off at the same pace until Jack unloaded with a hard straight right hand that Joe barely slipped. Joe stepped in with a heavy left hook to the body followed by a right to the head. Jack stepped in with a left hook-right cross combo. The crowd fell silent as they got a glimpse of the fighting spirit of two legendary warriors who were turning back the clock. The third round was even more heated. Joe was up for a fight and Jack knew it. In one of the clinches Jack whispered to Joe: “Take it easy on the old man.” Joe shot back: “You started it with that right hand old man.” Joe dipped and ripped a right uppercut up the middle of his chest. He barely leaned back out of the way. When the bell rang ending the exhibition, the crowd stood and cheered for several minutes.

The Philadelphia Tribune described the event:

It seemed that every newsreel company in town was on hand. They had been told in front that Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette were going to fight an exhibition and such an exhibition was big enough, it was figured, to swamp the place with writers and photographers, which was done.

The exhibition was just that to a certain extent in which Johnson and Jeannette clowned playfully, swung at Wills, the referee, and grimaced at the crowd. After the first round, however, the feel of the sixteen ounce gloves got good to both and the crowd was treated to some scientific boxing not seen in a ring since the day Wills and Sam Langford hung up their gloves for good.

The two ancients circled each other as warily as when they were fighting such greats as Tommy Burns, James Jeffries, Sam Langford and others. They sparred for openings and the sound of the heavy gloves on head and body was just as convincing as a real main event at Madison Square Garden. Through it all, the crowd looked on intently, sensing that it was getting a freebie on one of the best sports shows of the times.

Philadelphia Tribune December 15, 1945

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqod-seL8gw

 

You havent any souces you've never once posted a primary source to back up your lies since you have been here ,and now you again ignore my question.Which complete rounds do you give Moran against Johnson to back up your claim it was a close fight?
All your claims have been blown out of the water many times.

1. Burns did not break any of Johnson' ribs after the fight Johnson went for a swim and then to a victory party.
2.Kevin Smith came on this forum and attacked you for putting words in his mouth he did not speak. Burns did not have jaundice ,according to himself he was in the best shape of his life and his daily public work outs emphasized this.
3.Joe Jeannette, on the subject of Jack Johnson is like you,full of ****.165lbs?
185Jack Johnson205

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Germania Maennerchor Hall, Baltimore, Maryland, USA



LPTS1515



8 months after scaling 185lbs on the 14th of March 1906 to Johnson' s 205lbs
Jeannette is described as being 20lbs lighter than Johnson do you think Johnson dropped 20lbs down to 185lbs?You cretin! % months after his last fight with Johnson ,Jeannette scaled 185lbs to fight Sam McVey!

4. The foul is clear? Are you claiming you've seen this fight too?atsch The alleged foul occurred in the first round.You have only read an AP report by a paper that did not have a reporter present. Adam provides several ringside reports that dispute it was a foul at all and Johnson clearly won the first round!
5.Matt Donellon provided a French newspaper that clearly showed the fight was a ten rounder,someone else,possibly Senya also provided the Boxing News account of the fight showing it was a 10 rounder and that the Champion finished the stronger of the two! 6.No a liar needs a good memory and you don' t have one , that'swhy you continually trip up.
You stated the French Federation stripped Johnson of his crown because of the fight with Jim Johnson.Senya pointed out that Johnson was stripped of the title before the fight but,as per usual you refused to admit you were wrong ans ignored this.
7.Johnson picked Fitzsimmons as the greatest heavyweight and its been posted by me several times.
8 I've already covered this the NYTimes did not have a reporter present at the fight, ringside reports state the champion finished the stronger of the two.
9.I've posted the round by rounds scoring,Corbett was in the lead, Jeffries own manager W Brady told him in between the 20th and 21st rounds he was losing and had to ko Corbett to keep his title!
10.The first 6 rounds of the Jeffries fight would not be scored a draw Jeffries only won the 4th round of the early stanzas.Again I've posted the round by rounds several times.
11.You havent seen the Langford Hague fight now name ONE other person on this forum who claims to have seen it.
12 At what point during the Ketchel fight is a mark "clearly visible?" Tell us so we can view it.

The character of Jack Johnson is not the issue here,what is is the inccessant lies that you persist in propagating about him.


I have called you a liar many times and so you are, to back up my description of you I've produced examples of your lies,lies that you continually repeated after having been corrected.
You have again called me a liar and once again I challenge you to produce ONE EXAMPLE of my lying to back up your claim!

12 -0 to me.:good

 

I don't want to seem ungrateful for all the work you have done putting this together but I have to point out that most of it is unverified. or innaccurate,just to give you one example.

"After, Joe Jennette’s fighting career was over, he always remained friends with all members of The Big Four, until the day they died. Langford, MacVey and yes, Johnson"

Did he?
Jeannette retired in1922, Sam McVey died in1921.

NB The Heroes Parade for Johnson was organised by Barron Wilkins and **** Ellis it took place on 125th st and was followed by a reception and dance at the Manhattan Casino.

 

Correct, and in my sources I see no mention of Jeanette (although I concede they could have just overlooked this. Indeed, McVey and Bobby Dobbs are mentioned as coming to see Johnson at Wilkins club AFTER the parade.

 

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Joe Jennette retired 3 times during his career...they were all short lived but it happened...

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like i said they remained friends until the day they died...

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and yes Jennette and MacVey helped with the organizing of the Parade in Harlem with the backing of Fred R. Moore owner/editor of the New York Age - Harlem Newspaper...also, backing two silent films one with Jennette and the other with MacVey in 1921...

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I got most of my info from newspapers, some books and letters, all from the past... just search the archives yourself and you will find out all you need...after all it was Jack Johnson who said Joe Jennette was the toughest fighter he ever fought...toughest battles...and last but not least...fought in the

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If Jeannette and Johnson were friends how come no one can come up with a single kind quote from Jeannette on Johnson ? There are plenty of negative ones accusing him of ducking him,though he signed to fight him twice only to have the authorites veto both fights.Accusing him of deliberately fouling though that it is very debatable he even fouled him at all.

Jeannette picking Jeffries to beat Johnson and being a big booster of the white boxer during his come back.

"Even black boxers like Sam Langford and Joe Jeanette picked the white man. Perhaps Jeanette, who had fought Johnson more than any other man spoke for them all when he said, “Why Jeffries can lose half of his strength, have his endurance cut in two, carry a ton of extra weight and still whip Johnson” (Roberts p 102).

Sorry but with the greatest of respect I don't buy it.

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