Who did Holmes duck?

It's hard to say whether Holmes himself,or the people around him,was to blame but he could have had WBC/WBA unifying bouts against the likes of John Tate,Mike Weaver (rematch) Michael Dokes and Pinklon Thomas (IBF/WBC) As we all know,a match with Gerrie Coetzee fell through. Then there was a case of Tim Witherspoon deserving but not getting a rematch.

I would have made Larry a favourite for all of these proposed fights but it does impact on his legacy slightly. I still see him as a top 5 heavy without a doubt,though.

 

Holmes did not duck anyone.

He defended his title three times a year and would have gotten round to Page, Thomas and Coetzee but they could not keep winning long enough to stage a showdown. Thomas, Coetzee and Page all wound up losing to men Holmes knocked out.

It makes no difference to Holmes' legacy any more than any other long term champ who did not get all of his #1 contenders. ALI, Marciano, Dempsey and Joe Louis included.

What separates champions and number one contenders is the fact that a champion can beat elite fighters on a regular basis. Holmes was the real champ, he beat a lot of contenders. Thomas Coetzee and Page might have had a belt but like any contender who dosnt make it to champion they could not beat elite fighters on a regular basis.

The likes of Norton, Shavers, Leon Spinks, Muhammad Ali, Weaver, Berbick, Cooney, Cobb, Snipes, Witherspoon and Bey, bonecrusher Smith far out number (and were all as good) as the likes of a handfull of eratic contenders who could not string two good wins together whilst passing a belt between them.

 

Page, Doakes, Coetzee, Thomas were all #1 rated contenders between 81-85 who Holmes didn't fight. During that same period he fought Cobb, Rodriguez, Frank and Frazier and i don't think any were top 10 ranked. He gave up his WBC belt to fight the 10-0 Frazier rather than face #1 Greg Page. Missing that many #1 rated contenders should be a huge black mark against a Champion, look at how badly people crucify Dempsey for missing Wills and Greb.

 

That's apologist revisionism. Losing can explain Page but Doakes, Coetzee and Thomas all went undefeated for 3 year periods when they were #1 rated for one and top 5 the entire time. Thomas didn't lose until after Holmes lost his title to a LHW. I'm not saying he outright ducked these guys but if his reign is held up to the same level of scrutiny that guys like Dempsey, Marciano, Klychko routinely recieve than you would expect alot more criticism than seems to be the case when discussing Holmes.

 

Because he fought so frequently yet somehow seemed to miss alot of relevant names, his reign was certainly frustrating.

Weaver certainly has a strong case too, he deserved a rematch. The first fight was shockingly competitive and he had a strong run as WBA Champion where he impressively cleaned out Coetzee and Tate from the top off the rankings. While Holmes was defending against Zanon, Jones, Shavers II, and old Ali.

 

Thomas was nobody until he beat Tillis but he then drew with Coetzee and things went flat for him after that. Snipes beat Coetzee some two years earlier and he was knocked out by Holmes. Thomas wound up losing to Berbick who Holmes also beat. The year Thomas was #1 was the year Holmes defended against bonecrusher whom he had to fight because Smith beat Bruno in an eliminator. The next year Thomas chose to fight Weaver and Holmes fought Bey who had just beat Page.

Dokes was nobody. He beat weaver in a premature stoppage and was contracted to the rematch draw. There was a small window between drawing with the man Larry knocked out and getting knocked out by the man who lost to Renaldo Snipes when Dokes could have fought Larry but there was no real call for it.

Coetzee had a tough, tough run of things. Having already been knocked out by a Holmes victim Gerrie fought Thomas, Dokes and Page in back to back fights going 1-1-1. However, he was unlikely to get a fight with Holmes but it was almost made. King wanted to promote the titles separatly in the hope that he could build a unification but Coetzee took a supposedly washed up Page as a warm up for Holmes and blew his half of the title.

 

While it's true that all the WBA holders were beating each other,most of them were better than a lot of Holmes' challengers.

 

Not really. Bey beat Page. Snipes beat Coetzee. Weaver beat Tate. Smith beat Witherspoon. Berbick beat Thomas.

Holmes still beat more chalengers who became champions than those that didn't.

 

Weaver was a 18-9 record trial horse when he got a shot at Holmes and he rocked Larry several times and when he got dropped the ref jumped in...that fight gave Weaver confidence and he went on to beat some good fighters and set up a perfect unification fight.

Holmes had a good opportunity to fight Tate and there was nice windows of opportunity and $$$ making opportunity to fight Tate,Weaver,Dokes,Page,Coetzee,Thomas and weather it was Don King or Holmes they took advantage of the split titles to avoid certain guys. I still think Holmes had the best style and condition of the bunch but as far as styles I can only guess that Holmes would have beaten the best of his era because he did not fight them....even in rematching tough fights, Larry did not take the path of Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano when he did not rematch the 15 fight Witherspoon or Williams or Weaver

It was frustrating to have 2 titles and even after Coetzee dropped Snipes 2 X and robbed Gerrie of the title shot, Holmes got blasted by the right hand of Snipes, Gerrie's best weapon

I still think Larry would have had a few more losses on his record had he fought these guys...Larry was a better overall fighter but styles make fights

I like Larry but compared to Dempsey and his avoidance of Wills and Greb, Larry is king of avoidance and even if it was his promoter Larry is given a wide berth of forgiveness unlike Dempsey so there is a double standard here

 

Bey lost I think like 14 of his next 18 fights after Holmes and he was a 14 fight guy, Ocasio had like 13 fights, Spinks Leon had a 10-2-2 record and was KO'd in 1 round 2 years earlier by Coetzee, Marvis had 10 fights, Smith had a 14-1 record and Witherpoon & Williams 16 fights

Coetzee dropped Snipes 2X and was robbed by King but They by-passed Coetzee and went on to fight Snipes (who dropped Larry badly with the right hand

Tate,Thomas,Dokes,Coetzee,Weaver,Page all had either very good right hands and could have been stylistic problems for Larry. Pinklon had a great Jab ( loved to see him duel Jabs with Larry) these were all good fights of interest and most of them big paydays but Larry or King navigated around them. I dont say all of them but 6 failures to unify is a lot and Holmes gave up a title not to fight Page who had a strong lead right hand, good reflexes but was a poor conditioned guy (for Holmes he would have been on point) but Page was the weakest of all here because he was erratic but Larry gave up a title not to face him.

Rematches that Larry did not face up to Weaver, Williams & Witherspoon,Norton

Lets say Larry did not avoid them all on his own but these avoidance have to account for something

 

It's clear those belt holders were merely contenders rather than champions because they could not beat elite fighters as consistently as the champion could.

Throughout history There were a number of champions who missed out the odd #1 contender because of timing or politics. I'm not giving Holmes a pass any more than I would give another champion a pass, I just think its the same thing as not getting around to it because belts got in the way or the rival blew his shot. It's not actual ducking or avoidance if the rival champion loses his warm up.

Besides I don't think we should class Dokes-Weaver- Tate and co as rival champs they are just contenders with a belt. Joe Louis could have fought Melio betina, Joe Baksi, Jimmy Bivins, Turkey Thompson, Roscoe Toles and lem Franklin. It's the same thing.

One of the most sensational wins of the Holmes era was the Coetzee KO over Spinks. I think that warranted an automatic shot at a unified title but what spoiled things was it went to the garbage vacent WBA title. It should have gotten Gerrie a shot at Holmes but Holmes was busy defending against his #1 Ernie Shavers who beat Norton out of a rematch with Holmes.

I'm not saying they would not have made great fights if been been made. I just understand how they didn't happen. Most of these guys already lost to Holmes victims, were Holmes victims or would go on to lose to Holmes victims. I understand that Holmes wanted to stay busy waiting for these fights to happen and these other guys couldn't keep winning so they didn't happen. It's like Bob baker and valdes blowing their crack at Marciano.

 

Rating manipulation (which was proven) and Kings control over the ABC's $$$ was key here, there was a long window of opportunity and $$$ to be made with these match-ups but for the most part the tough fights were avoided by King/Holmes....Pretenders were made contenders but Tate,Dokes,Coetzee,Thomas,Page were floating around the # 1-5 spot and Co-Champs long enough for matches to be made. This was one of if not the most corrupt time of boxing history at Heavyweight.

I do not know of any Champion who is rated so high in the ATG top 10 that avoided so many top guys, failed to unify or rematch tough fights as Holmes

 

Rating manipulation of this period together with DK monopoly and trickeration was a shambles. You are absolutely corect but the criterion for the selection for vacating titles was often bogus. Page lost to Berbick but was gifted a vacent title chance. Tate was gifted a title chance too. Who did Dikes beat to warrant a crack at Weaver? What did Tubbs do to get a chance at Page?

Cooney was a number one contender. Had Holmes refused Cooney after Cooney flunked a fight with Berbick would anyone mind?

If it was a unified title and there was no alternative belt or governing body's to squabble together it would not have been a big deal if Holmes still had not met Page, Dokes or Thomas because they lost just enough times at elite level to prevent an automatic type challenge in the old days. In fact Holmes proberbly did defend against three times as many men as good as Page Dokes and Thomas. As intresting as those fights might have been its not like Holmes did not beat men as good as them.

There were less deserving challengers that Holmes had but then there always were. Louis had Harry Thomas, Ali had Chuck Wepner and so on. I would have liked to have seen Holmes face Thomas, Dokes and Page but their credentials to challenge Holmes were certainly no greater than Ocassio, Shavers, Spinks, Weaver, Cooney, Bey, Cobb, Smith and Witherspoon. They certainly were not outstanding contenders. I don't think there were that many outstanding contenders throughout the 1980s. Apart from Holmes it was a lot of guys with the same credentials when you look at it.

Holmes gets flack for taking marvis Frazier on but can anyone guarantee Marvis would have lost to any WBA champ during that era? It was pass the parcel over there.

 

Greg Page, definitely Greg Page.
Pinklon Thomas
didn't necessarily invite rematches for Witherspoon, or Williams either.