Who did Holmes duck?

Holmes fought Cooney, Witherpsoon, Smith, Williams and Spinks instead from 1982-1985. This is an active schedule for an older champion. Had Holmes not fought two of these guys and subbed in Page and Cotzee instead,some woud say he ducked others.

Dokes was the other alphabet champion. That fight would not be easy to make.

Page blew his chance losing to guys Holmes gave title shots too.

Cotezee wasn't on top for long.

 

No, not Greg Page.


Greg was 3-1 in his last 4 fights after Berbick popped his cherry. If three wins over Larry Frazier (wpts 10), Renaldo Snipes (wpts 10) and 14-5-1 Rick keller made Page some kind of sensation that's not how I remember it. The Renaldo Snipes win was given the eliminator tag even though Snipes had only won once in his last 3 fights! An eliminator between a man Larry knocked out and the man who lost to Berbick?

The WBC did what ever Don King wanted. Larry was the recognised people's champion by then. I beleive the way Holmes saw it was "let Greg win some more big fights while I deal with Marvis for the same money". As it was Page could not win another big fight. Page went on to lose to another guy in his next fight whom Larry also beat.

Thomas was only really availible and worthy around the time Holmes was busy knocking out David Bey and bonecrusher Smith but Pinklon wound up losing to Berbick.

 

I was a big fan of boxing from the 70's to the mid 90's and watched all of Holmes' title fights. I thought he was a helluva fighter but have to admit I wasn't too impressed with his choice of challengers. Men like Page, Thomas, Weaver again, Coetzee etc.. were better challengers than the likes of Marvis Frazier, Lorenzo Zanon and Randy Cobb regardless of rankings or recent losses. Holmes was at least an active champion but I just wish he decided to give some of the better HW's around at the time a shot. Holmes was a businessman and knew how to make the most money with the least amount of risk.

 

Coetzee didn't lose from the end of 81 to Dec 84 and was ranked #5,3,1 during those three years and still #5 after his loss to Page. Holmes fought Cobb, Rodriguez, Scott and Frazier during that time. :roll:

 

After Greg beat Renaldo, that solidified his #1 standing in the WBC, and Larry knew Greg was a legitimate threat, so he ducked him.But here's the thing, Greg didn't force the issue by looking impressive in his fights.He was too hot-and-cold.And Larry knew this, so a lot of people didn't have Greg's back, and he's the one responsible for that.But from that time frame from mid-to-late '83, Greg had a legitamite gripe( he was also the WBA #1 at the time Larry gave up the belt).

As far as Pinklon, late '84-85, Larry didn't want any part of Pinklon when he was on point.

As far as Don King goes, you are right on point.And I also feel that Larry saw that Don wasn't in his corner, so in addition to avoiding Page, he got rid of what he saw as a problem( the WBC belt), and moved on to greener pastures with the IBF:?.

 

Within that time scale you neglected to include Holmes other wins, landmark defences against Leon Spinks, Gerry Cooney (biggest fight in history up until that time), Tim Witherspoon and James Bonecrusher SMith. 4 rated contenders! As well as the softer Rodriguez, Frank and Frazier. That's 7 fights to Coetzee's run against what, one rated fighter and a draw with another at that time untested prospect pinklon Thomas? The other men Coetzee beat during this period wouldn't have botherd Marvis Frazier. 28-25-5 Leroy calldwell? Washed up 29-10-4 Scott ledoux? Fossie schmidt? Stan Ward? These are not world class names.

 

Why should a points win over Renaldo who has only won once in his last 3 fights since Larry knocked him out solidify anything? Why did the WBC make the guy who lost to Berbick (page) a #1 contender for outpointing another man (snipes) the champion just knocked out several losses earier? None of the results of this Berbick, Page and Snipes triangle is pressing anything sensational for an urgent title fight if you ask me. Page was no more a threat than Snipes (a guy he could not knock out but Holmes could) and the two men who beat him? The first two men who beat Page Holmes already beat.

 

Except that with the flu he still knocked out Weaver and Mike soon lost his title to Dokes ..

 

There is no doubt Holmes tailored his post Cooney title reign but a huge part of it was that none of the fighters stayed victorious long enough and there was no serious demand for any fight. He also fought many of the men who beat the men. Page lost to Bey and Berbick. Thomas lost to Berbick. And so on ... that being said if he ducked anyone in my opinion he wanted no part of a Witherspoon rematch ..

 

It was the Holmes fight that gave the 18-9 Weaver the confidence to get in condition to fight and he improved after the Holmes fight, thing is Weaver had Holmes staggered all-over the ring and wobbly and the Ref stop fight with Weaver in the corner...no one expected Weaver to do so well and a rematch could have happened immediately or after Weaver beat Tate, Coetzee and there was plenty of time for that rematch - unification

 

Cooney was his top challenger and Cooney had 24 fights never fought past 8 rds and fought only 2 rounds in the last 2 years prior to facing Holmes

 

Cooney was the closest thing to an outstanding contender the 1980s had and Holmes fought him. You could not tell any other contender apart, nobody stood out, aside from Holmes no other heavyweight could actualy beat enough elite fighters to warrant real demand from the public.

On any given night Snipes , Berbick, Dokes Witherspoon, Thomas, Page, Coetzee, Tubbs, Bey, Weaver could lose to one another. Give them a belt to fight over and they would still be passing it around now. It became as much a parallel circuit for those who could not beat Holmes as a rival championship.

 

Larry Holmes was a serial ducker, but some people just don't want to see it. Holmes took fights against guys who he felt were less risky. A few of those fights -- against Witherspoon and Williams -- almost backfired on Holmes. Both Witherspoon and Williams became good fighters, but going into their challenges of Holmes, they were inexperienced and lightly regarded. How successful Witherspoon and Williams later became had no bearing on when they challenged Holmes. THey were viewed as novices going into the Holmes fight. And after giving Holmes hell, Larry, of course, fails to give either rematches.
Greg Page and Pinklon Thomas were threats to Holmes. And Witherspoon and Williams deserved rematches.

 

So, since those guys regularly passed belts around and lost fights, that means they would have automatically lost to Larry Holmes? Do you honestly think that Marvis Frazier or Scott Frank or Lucien Rodriguez were as big a threats to Holmes as Greg Page or Pinklon Thomas would have been?
Is getting a title shot only dependent on staying undefeated for several years?

 

Ask Jose Sulaiman why Page was moved to the number one spot. But the point is, Greg Page was Holmes' mandatory contender (whether or not you agree with his ranking) and Holmes failed to fight his number one contender. And if Greg Page was so unspectacular and non-threatening, shouldn't Holmes have jumped at the chance to fight him? Holmes could have easily dusted off this imposter Page and fulfilled his obligation to fight the number one contender. Sounds so easy and straightforward, but for some reason, it wasn't.
Didn't you say Bonecrusher won an elimination fight, which is why Holmes had to fight him? Ok, Greg Page did the same thing, but Page didn't get the fight.

Larry Holmes was a great fighter, but he was a serial ducker -- BIG TIME!