Who do you consider the best heavyweight of all-time?

But you could also argue that Louis's many exhibitions kept him sharper. Ali did just about nothing for 3,5 years. He had a couple of exhibitions but not much, and therefore it seems reasonable that his reflexes and instincts should have dulled more. (They still seemed pretty sharp during the first half of the 70's, though)

 

Louis was fairly active over much of the war for reasons that I have stated, but he was taking ringwear much faster than Ali early in his career.

I think it is fair to say however that Louis was further gone after his layoff than Ali was after his. Louis's layoff came somewhat later in his career cycle, relativley speaking, even if he was not much older.

Having said that it is dificult to tell whether the rot really set in during the period from 1941-45, or the period from 1945-48.

Again it also has to be noted that Louis was less durable than Ali and as such depended more on his superiority of speed over his opponents.

 

I would challenge your premise. Louis scored knockouts over the top-rated Conn (who had also layed off but was much younger) and Mauriello in 1946 at 32. At 33 in 1947 he had the poor fight against Walcott, but Louis had also been inactive for 15 months. His performance at 34 against Walcott in 1948 was more impressive in my judgement than anything Ali did from the age of 34 or up. I think it is actually more impressive than Ali's performance in the 3rd Frazier fight.

Louis retired and so didn't fight officially at 35 but he did stop Elmer Ray in a "shooting match" exhibition and there is a film of an impressive ko of Pat Valentino in an exhibition.

At 36 Louis loses to top 25 ATG Ezzard Charles and Ali loses to Leon Spinks. Ali looks better but not really that good in the rematch which he wins. Spinks would probably be viewed as at best a fringe contender were it not for the first Ali fight, basically on par with Pete Rademacher.

At 37 Louis wins 8 in a row, including an impressive ko of Savold and a decision over Bivins. He puts up a decent fight against the up and coming Marciano. Ali does not win a fight after 36 and is not at all competitive with Holmes at 38. He loses to Berbick at 39.

I think Louis has the edge at 34 and older, myself.

 

Louis was much older and laid off longer. I don't think this is a very solid point. Ali was still in his twenties when he started his comeback.

Ali started his comeback at age 28 while Louis began his four year layoff at age 28.

 

Maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. But I still find it very unrealistic to claim that Ali would do as well as he did in his second career if he didn't have a lot of skill. Louis's skill was more textbook, for sure, but I don't think it was greater.

I think Mailer put it the best when he writes about Ali's decision to start with right-hand leads against such a deadly puncher as Foreman, a decision that is anything but textbook.

"Classic maxims of boxing [not starting with right-hand leads]. All fight writers know them. Off these principles they take their interpretation. They are good engineers at Indianapolis but Ali is on his way to the moon."

Or as Zora Folley puts it:

"The right hands Ali hit me with just had no business landing, but they did. They came from nowhere. Many times he was in the wrong position but he hit me anyway. I've never seen anyone who could do that ... The trickiest fighter I've seen. He's had twenty-nine fights and acts like he's had a hundred. He could write the book on boxing, and anyone who fights him should be made to read it."

 

Yes, Louis might very well have the edge from 34 onwards. But I just said that Ali accomplished more in his second career, after a lay-off during which he was much less active than Louis. At 34 Ali was clearly showing the effects of his tough fights against Frazier, mainly the one in Manilla. He faded very fast after Manilla.

 

His comeback started at 28, though. I don't know how you can directly compare their second careers when Louis began his when four years older.

I will put it this way, if Ali had fought straight through to 1970, he might never have lost to Frazier. If he had then laid off until 1974, I think it probable he would never have defeated Foreman or Norton.

 

Well, if he had one pro fight and 80 exhibitions during that time he might well have. Though I give him a better chance against Foreman than Norton. That man was Ali's cryptonite even more than Frazier.