Who do you consider the best heavyweight of all-time?

Louis had fought more, but ther are other factors. Ali had been in wars with heavy volume heavyweight Joe Frazier in a brave losing effort in New York and had been in a second, less difficult fight with all time great Joe. He had been in two very difficult fights with Ken Norton, who had broken his jaw. Ali was using a style totally at odds with his original style due to the ravages of age. Louis was using basically the same style. I personally don't accept that Louis was the more shopworn - certainly Ali had been involved in the more drainging fights, and his style had been more dramatically morphed. I don't see why you draw the Manilla parallel given the stats and the facts.

One way to see it. Not unreasonable.

This works both ways - Joe is enjoying a workout straight from the Harry Greb school of boxing. Living it and breathing it. I would speculate, given Ali's personality and Louis's style that each set of circumstances suited each fighter down to the ground.

This is fair - my argument was that Ali was pitched into the absolute top leage more quickly (in terms of the stage of his career it happened at) than Louis was. Yes, Louis was steered towards the title by a more difficult route, but this allowed him to be "more ready", or it should have. TO watch the two fights, Joe is the one who looks greener.

As for the unconditioned Liston/conditioned Liston argument - I disagree. I consider that Louis would have struggled more with Old Liston than he did with Baer, and I consider Ali would have had less trouble with that version of Baer than he did with Sonny.

I understand, but sometimes to hear you speak (or read you write), I feel that you forget it sometimes.

 

There is definitely something in this. I will just say that Ali found that he had other attributes - durability, heart and genius - just as affective for winning as his speed and movement, or nearly.

Unfortunately they wrere also more costly to the man himself and his failties.

 

"Lost" is not the right word, but you've hit the nail on the head as usual. Interestingly though, it is timing and refelxes that gets him out of trouble in Walcott II with a raft of beautifully timed but technically sloppy - relative term you understand - punches.

Don't you think this Walott would always have given Louis, even the peak version, serious trouble?

 

Very good post in my opinion.

Louis makes all the traditional angles for all the traditional punches and his hands are positioned ideally for doing this given his punching stlye and the sort of distances involved in those punches.

Ali had fewer great punches but in my opinion like Greb, like Jones, like Burley, he could make those punches happen in strange and wonderful ways.

Fighting Louis should be thought of like fighting a tiger - you know exactly what he is going to do and stopping it is going to be nearly impossible.

Ali is less predictable, and although he is less lethal because of his limitations on offence, he is more dangerous in terms of avoiding what is coming your way

 

This is only half the story.

Ali had fought more wars, I wonder had he fought more rounds?.

 

Thanks for saying so buddy.

I've enjoyed your posts on Ali in this thread.

 

:good

 

Thanks SQ.

When you put in that type of effort your stuff is unmissable, i'll keep an eye out.