Who do you consider the best heavyweight of all-time?

He's the GREATEST HW ever in my book, although only microscopically ahead of the (technically superior) Joe Louis (couldn't resist)... so don't misunderstand me.

Distance-negotiation/range-finding, hand-eye coordination and precision, mobility, gracefulness... these are things that are apparant in athletes playing professional ping pong, tennis, football, and multiple other sports. Natural athletes pick these up easily. Boxing technique involves the technical -like infighting. Which Ali just never properly learned. Because he was not a technician, prefering instead to develop into a savant.

He was the Beethoven of Boxing, he made up his own moves sure, but had he not had his speed and reflexes let's not pretend that he would have survived Henry Cooper, never mind Sonny Liston! Ali would have went NOWHERE.

 

I think he would have survived Cooper alright (he beat Shavers after all when he had just about nothing left), but point taken. But would Louis stand a chance against Liston without his power, reflexes and hand speed? Probably not.

I would say that in-fighting is the same as movement insofar that it takes both physicality and technique to master it really well. Most good in-fighters have great strength and power as well as fast reflexes, good hand speed and timing. Short, sturdy arms doesn't hurt either.

 

Cooper would have ruined him. RUINED him. He survived Shavers because by then he was bigger, more durable, and a cagey veteran. Kid Cassius, sans that speed, would have been a sitting duck for any seasoned professional!

Chavez was not especially athletic. Nor was Arguello. The only other sport Carlos Ortiz would have excelled in is bridge. They, and a hundred others were serious infighters.

As I see it, greatness has three more or less physical requirements: Technical skill, athleticism, and a lion's heart. The best of the best have all three -Robinson, Duran, Pep, Langford, Charles, etc.... some guys compensate -Ali had serious athleticism and serious heart... both of which compensated consecutively in the 60s and 70s for technical flaws. Jones had supreme athleticism, but was deficient on technical skill and heart (he simply avoided risks in and out of the ring)... which is why he is not anywhere near the top 10 or top 20 in my book.

 

Well, his skills and technique was adapted for that speed as I see it. But if he didn't posses that speed I think his style would be different. He partly made such an adaption when his speed started to diminish.

But, of course, a guy with young Ali's style but not his speed gets killed. There we agree. Perhaps I haven't been clear enough about this.

Wouldn't you say they had good reflexes or timing even? Chavez was at least pretty strong, wasn't he?

 

Hmmm... well, I'd say that skills are learned. You don't obtain a skillset by osmosis and boxing has tried and true techniques that are taught. Boxing fundamentals are by and large the foundation of effectiveness in the ring. Wouldn't you agree?

Talent is God-given/natural. Ali's foundation was there and he was able to "riff" as you say -that is, get away with breaking the tried and true "rules" due to his superior athleticism.

I would say that Louis was far more of a technician, but not necessarily better. Fair?

If you agree that skills are learned, and backing up in straight lines is a no-no, then how could you call Ali's doing it a "skill"? I would argue that it is something else -speed, rythym, or what have you. But skill? Nah.

Okay, here is the crux:

Louis, and most great fighters, have superior technical skill as their foundation. Their athleticism (speed/superior strength or size/power/timing, etc) complements or enhances it.

Now, by contrast, Ali, Hamed, Jones, et al. do not have superior technical skill as their foundation. They rely on athleticism. This is why for example, when Jones's aged, he did not have the technical foundation to rely on -like Archie Moore and Duran did for example, Jones fought the same into his 30s -only without that super speed- and fell to the earth with a crash.

Who sees them as "technicians"??? That word should not be thrown around so easily. Show me the commentator who sees those two as technicians and I'll show you a man who should be commentating Wimbelton. Kessler is better than Klitschko. Klitschko is basic. He's not an excellent outfighter -he's an effective outfighter and there is a difference.

Why is he an effective outfighter? Because he's a giant with 86 inch reach telephone polls!

Here's Klitschko-stein fighting the Wolfman:

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What the !#$% is the difference?

 

All fighters have some degree of athletic ability... you cannot make a speed bag dance without it. But they relied on technique first with athleticism as a complement and an enhander to that foundation. And most greats do.

See, I don't think that having athleticism as a foundation puts a boxer on solid ground. The vast majority of fighters who rely on athleticism get cracked and hurt early and that's it for them. There are exceptions of course, but even the exceptions really tend to prove the rule. Technique is emphasized so strongly because it has to be. In what sport is technique not important?

 

A well past peak Norton also had no right to give (much closer to peak than Ali) Larry Holmes such a titanic struggle either. Yet he did. I'm pretty sure Futch was long gone from Norton. Not certain when he took over for Holmes.

 

Bill Slayton(??) was ken nortons trainer for holmes fight. i have kens book. going by the ali-norton and norton-holmes fights its hard to argue any technical heavyweight boxer in history outboxing ken norton. norton beat ali and lost a 1 point split decision to peak holmes, both top 5 ATG heavyweights.

 

:good

Norton wasn't an ATG against punchers, but he was capable of beating pretty much any boxer mover ever.

 

studying people on ESB......I think ESBs h2h heavyweight of all time top 10 would look something like this

1. Lennox Lewis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Vitali Klitschko
4. Corrie Sanders
5. Mike Tyson
6. Riddick Bowe
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Larry Holmes
9. Buster Douglas
10. Sam Peter

 

Well, if Futch were Merlin and I served my apprenticeship under him, I'd have a pretty nice repertoire of tricks to sell out an auditorium even now, haha.