Who do you consider the best heavyweight of all-time?

Technique is very important. But we just fundamentally disagree when it comes to Ali. I wouldn't say that he lacked in fundamentals as much as he choose to ignore some of them. That's why he held his hands low and pulled his head straight back from punches. Let's not forget that Tunney did this also.

He also developed techniques that was not textbook, but that he felt worked obviously. This was very much true about his punching. He liked to use his wrist when delivering a punch, and often connected with the heel of his hand instead of with his fist. But he threw some very nice textbook hooks as well. Another thing he liked to do was to twist the fist at impact to open cuts more effectively. He had a great jab that he used in a number of ways, depending on what he wanted out of it. He had, in Futch's words, a "classic" right. Probably the most textbokk thing in his repertoire.

His movement was in many senses outstanding (and not just the speed of it), but I have alreay expanded on that. He also worked constantly on his own defensive techniques. In the fight against Ellis and rematch against Patterson he showed some of these. He didn't slip punches and he didn't bend at the knees when he ducked, but he had other techniques and they worked for him.

His positioning was also outstanding. He was just about never off balance and almost always in position to evade punches or engage/counter. I can't remember when he was caught due to poor balance. You could argue the KD against Wepner, but there were claims that Wepner stood on his foot when delivering the punch.

Also the way he used the ropes should be noted. Futch was already before FOTC worried about how Ali could trick an opponent when against the ropes and use the ropes as leverage for his punches. That's why he had Frazier go to the body so much, not to give Ali the chance to slip and counter. It should also be noted that Ali was one of the great clinchers. While not being beautiful, this is a very important technique/skill to master and was crucial for him after the comeback.

He hardly punched to the body or fought inside. But this was a matter of choice. I do also think he showed some accomplished inside fighting in Manilla, even if he tried to keep that fight on the outside as much possible, of course.

To sum up, I would say that people correctly point out that Ali's style was flawed from an orthodox standpoint, but draw the incorrect conclusion that this means he didn't have any technique/skills, just a lot of natural talent. He did have a lot of technique/skill, that he developed in his own specific way.

 

Whether Ali lacked in fundamentals, or chose to consistently ignore them is adademic. Ali was not a technician. That really has to be placed outside of the realm of dispute.

"Hitting with the open glove, the butt of the hand, the wrist or the elbow, and all backhand blows" is illegal in Nevada and in most of the U.S.

At times, but usually, his hooks were slaps with no leverage! Let us not give him a pass because -sometimes- he had nice textbook hooks but usually he did not.

The "corkscrew"... which is more or less how you are supposed to throw a shot.

Futch (and I) already acknowledged these. These remain the only two shots that Ali consistently threw correctly.

He moved very well -acknowledged. Can you acknowledge that the vast majority of that movement we both admire occured out of range? It's simply not as objectively impressive as short pivots inside the perimeter that at once allow the fighter to slip and counter simulaneously. Ray Leonard's movement in New Orleans impresses Hollywood celebrities in the front row, but not those who understand that sound technique in the danger zone is more beautiful because it is more difficult and more dangerous.

No, Frazier caught him all night with hooks at MSG because he was leaning back with his right hand by his waist. And what happened when Frazier did catch him? Ali would grab him behind the head, which is illegal. Frazier caught Ali with something in the range of 50 left hooks over 15 rounds. From beginning to end, Ali tried to lean back with his hands low. This is BAD TECHNIQUE!

"Holding or deliberately maintaining a clinch" is illegal in Nevada and most states.

You are rationalizing his flaws. Ali's defense relied on reflexes and staying out of range. When his legs went and his reflexes slowed, what happened? He took shots. Repeatedly. Which accelerated his Parkinson's syndrome and therefore seriously damaged him.

Would you say that he "chose" to disregard almost all of the defensive techniques taught in the amateurs? That when he got older, he purposefully took shots? I'm telling you that his technical flaws, masked for 10 years by supreme youthful athleticism, were exposed. He relied on magnificent heart and durability, but don't you agree that it would have been healthier to rely on a strong foundation of technique?

If he had that strong foundation, Bokaj, but "chose to ignore it" when he was young, why didn't he choose to use it when he slowed down instead of inviting concussions?

 

Yes. In FOTC he still fought like he had the legs he had had before the lay-off, but he remedied that and was much more careful in Manilla. There he didn't take very many clean left hooks. He still took a lot of punishment, but not nearly as many clean punches as in FOTC.

But it's still a part of the game, like it or not.

I don't think he took more punishment than any other old fighter. The really punishing fights he had was the first and last fight with Frazier, but Frazier was a formidable adversary. He took a couple of huge shots from Shavers, but so did Holmes, in his his prime. Not even his last fight, where he was shot to pieces, was very punishing.

I have been saying repeatedly that he did make some necessary adaptions to his style. And I think that the belief that he became a human punching bag is greatly, greatly exaggerated. He was against Holmes, but that was hardly surprising considering the state he was in.

I just saw his fight against Young. He looked terrible. Overweight, underprepared, slow, bad timing - but still he didn't get hit much. And this was against perhaps the slickest boxer around at the time.

 

No heavy was faster. Check him start to take apart Patterson round 2.

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time to crucify Floyd - i counted Ali threw 112 punches in round 6.

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Both Louis and Ali were excellent, athletically and technically, in their own individual styles.

If Ali is "flawed", it is only in the standard technical sense. In his prime, he had his own unique style, perfectly suited for his own philosophy of hitting hard and often enough for a win and avoiding getting hit clean himself.

He knew exactly what he was doing. Watching him against Liston, Williams and Foley is watching an astronaut in his own universe at work, a beautiful craft forged from a 100-bout amateur career and 10 years' experience in hitting something consistently and passionately. Every second prime Ali was in the ring is a lesson from greatness.

And for his critics, he said it best: "I can start fast. I can start slow. You writers never fought anybody."

 

Ali wasn't hit much against Young because Young fought him on the backfoot and was barely punching. Watch the Shavers fight. Shavers was barely active himself but when he was, he was landing often with that long right and Ali was doing what he always did -leaning back. Only now he was getting caught -and hurt. That's because of bad technique!

Berbick hurt him too -that was a very punishing fight for Ali. Just because he went the distance doesn't remove that fact -if anything it enhances that fact.

I simply -and strongly- disagree with you. Ali took more punishment than you are prepared to acknowledge. And he took far more than he had to. The adjustments you see weren't much more than him staying further out of range for longer periods of time and clinching more. He simply got less offensive and coasted to decisions.

 

There are exceptions. Pep is widely considered one.

Ah, but the train did come. Watch Ali-Shavers. Ali pulls straight back from Shavers' rights and is caught -repeatedely. His chin held up of course, but he was hurt.

This is starting to look like semantics for us, McGrain.

"Effective" skills are not necessarily synonmous with "excellent" skills although the reverse is true. Ali's sliding back in a straight line is effective -but not recommended and not "excellent". It's purely reliant on natural ability and is therefore risky -as he himself later discovered. Klitschko's ability to control small guys in the clinch isn't excellence -it's simple, even though it's effective.

Klitschko is basic. I see that as an objective fact. He has basic fundamental skills. If he were 6'1 and 225 lbs, with the same skill set, he would be a tomato can.

I see Kessler's skillset and was disappointed that he surrendered to the will of Joe "open windows" Calzaghe. That to me, was why he lost, he surrendered and allowed Joe to "ruin his boxing."

 

... Sometimes, even on this hallowed site, it feels as though criticism of Ali the man or Ali the boxer is tantamount to blasphemy.

Ali was a flawed man and a flawed fighter -excuses are made here (not by McGrain) for his obvious technical flaws and shortcomings, technical problems that Futch easily saw and exploited twice in a row.

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by the way, ...some of us out here are writers and fighters. Brawlers and scholars. Ali was wrong again.

 

What makes you think he'd fight the same way if he were 6'1"?

He uses his size better than anyone in history besides Lennox Lewis. To punish him for that by saying "if he fought that way if he was 6'1" he'd get murdered" is just silly. That's like saying "If Tyson was featherfisted and fought that way he'd get murdered". Moot point.


There have been a ton of 6'5"+ fighters the last decade. If it's so easy to do what he does, then why is he (together with a select few others) the only one to have extended success? Here is a little clip of him landing a few right hands. If you call that so bad technically to the degree that he'd be a tomato can at 6'1", well then........ i have to disagree.

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He also stayed off the ropes and corners for the entire 12 rounds against a bullrushing, confident Samuel Peter. That's skill and boxing ability, not luck.

 

The Train never did come for Johnson becuase Johnson would hold onto the train and toss it to one side. He didnt run from it like Ali did.

 

Ali gets plent critized on this forum. So he doesn't seem untouchable too me.

Futch was great but I do think he had the perfect material in Frazier and Norton to beat Ali. Frazier ate up all other boxers except Ali and Norton was great against other boxers as well. So let's not get over board with how Futch was Ali's nemesis.

Almost all fighters have weaknesses. Louis had weaknesses that was exposed by Schemling, and he had a hard time against slicksters like Conn and Walcott and against swarmers like Godoy.

Ali wasn't complete, I give you that. He honed certain skills and techniques to a very high degree, while he paid less heed to others. I think that will be my last words about it on this thread.

 

Basic! Staying off the ropes against Peter! Basic! Klitschko knows how to throw a straight right. Come on. Does that mean that he is a technician in your book? That was a fan clip and you still manage to see him jumping back and straight with his hands down. God forbid he finish on his left.

Tyson had a wide array of technical skill -he was well-taught, power or no power. His foundation was technical -not power. Big difference, Chris.

 

I apreciate your point about Louis having a lot of rounds of actual fights under his belt when he went into the deepend but I think you have to make some alowance for the speed with which he was moved. If you stuck all your driving lessons end on end would you be ready to take your test after 24 hours?

If it was simply a matter of having enough fights then why didnt Ali's handlers try to get him ready for a title shot in his second year as a pro?

Louis was basicaly run in like a London taxi where one set of drivers work it in the day time and another set work it at night. 25 fights in 14 months means one every fortnight.

Could you imagine Amir Khans handlers matching him up on a fortnightly basis often against fringe contenders and putting him in with Cory Spinks nine months after he turned profesional?