Who do you consider the best heavyweight of all-time?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Rumsfeld, Jul 21, 2008.


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  1. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    :lol:
     
    Rumsfeld, Jul 21, 2008
    Rumsfeld, Jul 21, 2008
    #16
  2. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    janitor, Jul 21, 2008
    janitor, Jul 21, 2008
    #17
  3. Rumsfeld

    Rumsfeld Moderator Staff Member

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    :lol:
     
    Rumsfeld, Jul 21, 2008
    Rumsfeld, Jul 21, 2008
    #18
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Both lost to the very best fighter they fought around, but not during, their absolute peaks. Ditching Louis' post retirement losses and Ali's post illness losses for the sake of ease gives Ali ONE additional loss. Here are a list of the fighters who are arguably top 10 in the history of this division that Ali beat

    Liston x2
    Frazier x3
    Foreman x1

    And Louis's:

    Nobody.

    One additional loss is nothing measured against this domination of world class competition.


    The only way to weigh this equation in favour of Louis is if you favour Louis. It is possible to be genuinely mistaken of course.



    Yes, fair enough.
     
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    #19
  5. round15

    round15 Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Jack Johnson IMO is the #1 heavyweight of all time, considering the time he fought and all the black contenders that he beat that were very much capable of being heavyweight champion in different eras.
     
    round15, Jul 21, 2008
    round15, Jul 21, 2008
    #20
  6. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    True McGrain, but it should also be noted that some people (not me, mind you) thought Liston was washed up or something for the Ali fights. Foreman was at his peak but Frazier was further away from his best than Ali was from his when Ali got the win, whereas he lost when both were closest to their prime. Also Louis would've never lost to Norton. It goes both ways. Ali lost 3 peak years in banishment, but that also gave Frazier, Quarry, Bonavena etc a chance to make a name for themselves and enhancing Ali's legacy when he beat them later.
     
    ChrisPontius, Jul 21, 2008
    ChrisPontius, Jul 21, 2008
    #21
  7. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    He avoided Langford, Jeanette and McVey when they entered their primes and when Johnson was champion. Gunboat Smith never got a shot either.


    A "champion" (i find it hard to consider someone who avoids the best competition a champion) who ducked FOUR of the best contenders around has no business at the #1 spot. You may come up with reasons, excuses and magic shows now on how he already beat them when they had 10 fights or so, or how the fights weren't marketable, but all of that is irrelevant. I guess fighting with big money maker, or i should say, journeyman Jim Johnson was marketable of course. Bottom line is the fights didn't happen.
     
    ChrisPontius, Jul 21, 2008
    ChrisPontius, Jul 21, 2008
    #22
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    It's not unfair. Your post is reasonable. For me, I'm not happy with either Liston win. It's okay to lend a certain amount of weight to these arguments, but in the end the facts are the facts. Old Liston is better than anyone on Louis' resume IN MY OPINION (though i'm well aware you and I can argue all night about him and Walcott, who pushed Joe close twice).

    Not only was Foreman an all time great at his absolute peak, but Ali was way, way past his. An incredible win. Imagine Joe Louis knocking out Rocky Marciano? Is that a fair comparison?

    I love Joe, I have no desire to denigrate him, I just think that the arguments concerning his case have to be "worked". Ali's do not.
     
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    #23
  9. Blacc Jesus

    Blacc Jesus . Full Member

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    Definitely Ali, IMO.
     
    Blacc Jesus, Jul 21, 2008
    Blacc Jesus, Jul 21, 2008
    #24
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Ali has the more solid resume,imo ,he beat three men who make most peoples top 10,and lots of rated heavies, many when past his prime.Louis only lost when he wasnt focused against Schmeling,and when he was past it against Charles and Marciano.Two great Champs Louis makes my no4 spot,Ali my no 1.
     
    mcvey, Jul 21, 2008
    mcvey, Jul 21, 2008
    #25
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  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    When are you going to Iraq, by the way? You seem to be in the right age for enlisting.:good
     
    Bokaj, Jul 21, 2008
    Bokaj, Jul 21, 2008
    #26
  12. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    janitor, Jul 21, 2008
    janitor, Jul 21, 2008
    #27
  13. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Suzie Q brought up some good black fighters that Louis never faced in a recent thread. Walcott obviously claimed that one of them (I forget who) was the best fighter he ever met.

    I think the fact that Louis never took on any of these fighters diminish his legacy somewhat. Ali fought just about anyone there was to fight.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 21, 2008
    Bokaj, Jul 21, 2008
    #28
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well if you weigh the Norton loss against wins over Frazier, Liston, Foreman...good luck to you!

    The Tyson nuthuggers try this one on too.

    It's just as incorrect if not quite as unseemly to see it in Classic.

    Frazier proved himself versus Muhammad Ali who proved himself versus Liston who proved himself against Patterson who proved himself against Johannson. All top 30. Foreman proved himself against Frazier. Top 5. Ali proved himself against Frazier, Foreman and Liston.
     
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    #29
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Check it out Janitor -

    This is your boy!
     
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    McGrain, Jul 21, 2008
    #30
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