Who do you consider the best heavyweight of all-time?

Mcgrain u make some wonderful points........but take this into considation. while joe louis in his first year as a pro took on the worlds very best heavyweights/linear champions.........ali literally did not fight any top rated dangerous contenders until 4 years after being a pro. Fighters like harold johnson, C williams, folley, machen, ali avoided fighting all these men in the early 1960s for smart management. Louis however was thrown against the wolves early on.

 

"The Brown Bomber"

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Cox has the best boxing videos on youtube. So yes, I've seen it. More to the point -you have seen it... so let's join hands and sing of the superiority of Joe's skill over Ali's:

Alleluia! Alleluia! [I don't hear you McGrainy!]

 

Thanks for that awesome clip McGrain. Awesome stuff. I saw Lennox Lewis thrown in to the conversation at some point. I think a problem we encounter when comparing different generations is the size factor. Lennox was huge compared to Louis and it's the only reason he'd have a chance. All things being equal, I can't imagine Lennox navigating 15 rounds with Louis given his suspect chin.

 

I do agree Mcgrain. since the patterson loss, Archie had gone 40-2 in his last 6 years without being knocked out and archie recently knocked unconsious 6'4 212lb contender alejandro lavorante putting him in a coma and drew with Champion Willie Pastrano. moore moved up to # 4 in heavyweight rankings. Moore even at 46 was still a dangerous fighter, althought with clays speed youthness and movement he was a stylistic nightmare for archie by 62. But I think its an underated win.

 

I picked Ali. I have no problem with anyone picking Louis. I'm fonder of Louis, and I'd pull for Louis if they fought.
I have the feeling that, at their best, other top 15 heavies have a little better chance against Louis at his best, than against Ali at his best.

 

You could put together a pretty good video of Ali's skills as well.

Him somehow not letting Liston set him up for the finish while having him blinded, him knocking down Williams while going backwards, him KO'ing Folley with "punches I had no reason getting hit with", him schooling Quarry in their second fight - tormenting him with the jab and keeping him from coming in with short, sharp hooks and uppercuts -, him hitting Foreman with right hand leads in the first round, not letting Foreman positioning himself in a comfortable position to let go at Ali and finally taking him out with a devastating pinpoint combination after almost eight gruelling rounds. Etc, etc.

Now, that would be a good video.

 

I think that Louis had the kind of backing that no previous fighter had up to that point, in terms of resources and suport, and I think he was given adequate time to recover between bouts.

He was brought along at a ridiculous pace though. Ali was still fighting guys with loosing records 9 or even 14 months into his career. Louis was fighting former champions.

His backing came at a high price. His backers expected a puick return.

In fact can you name any fighter from any era who beat two former champions in their first 18 months as pro let alone two who had been "the man" only a few months earlier?

 

If Louis's skill was so superior Ali's he should have done better after the lay-off than Ali. He not only had his supposedly superior skill to fall back on, but his most important physical asset - power - is also the last go. Ali's most important assets - speed and reflexes - are on the other hand the first ones to diminish.

So Louis should have been much better off after his lay-off, but in reality the opposite seems to be more true.

 

There are a whole raft of factors at work.

Louis's decline is atributable not just to the layoff but also to shopwear. He had been fighting a ridiculous schedule for many years by the time the war broke out, and his profesional fights were just the tip of the iceberg. He fought litteraly dozens of exhibitions between his title defences which were basicaly four round fights that usualy ended in a knockout. During the war alone Louis fought 93 exhibitions to raise money for the army/navy releif funds and other charities.

It is dificult to pinpoint exactly when Louis's decline took place but it can be atributed to a combination of shopwear and intermitent layoffs. I think that even if the war had not happened he would have started to loose a little over the next years. Louis himself thought that the Maurellio fight post war was the last time he felt his former self, but it dosnt tell us much because of how it unfolded so quickly.

By the Walcott fight Louis had lost his timing and reflexes, and had to fall back on his power and technical fundamentals.

It has to be added that one asset that Ali had to fall back on when his skills eroded which Louis didnt was his ungodly durability. Once Louis had to soak up as much punishment as his oponents he sudenly found himself on a level playing field.