who do you considered more skillfull pernell or willie

One of the best posts I've read in classic in a long time. Well said.

Pep was poetry in the boxing ring. Just ask John Garfield and he will salivate at the thought of Pep's brilliance in the ring. It's tough, though. More ability... more skilled. It's a grey area. I won't say Pep was more skilled but it's a damn close, marginal difference.

If Whitaker was more skillful (Which he probably was), Pep was more cerebral, more creative.

 

What Pep did is unattainable today or in Sweat Peas era. It is truly incredible how fighters like PEP, SRR, Archie and Greb among others maintained the win streak so long and against so many great fighters....I am afraid we will never see this again in my favorite sport but see Teds spoons post below to articulate



Ted Spoon"
Originally Posted by Ted Spoon

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Pep had the greater imagination. Pernell was a fantastic improviser but Pep made the unusual his trademark with his quintuple jabs and surreal movement.

It was the way in which Pep would stagger his movement, fight with that cherished 'broken rhythm' which Bruce Lee championed in his 'Tao of Jeet Kune Do'. Whitaker fought with pin-point efficiency, but when you watch him enough you begin to see the same moves (no less effective!), but that innate arbitrariness of Pep was a weapon in itself.

Skill is an ugly word. 'Science' is the superior, old definition of technical 'know-how' and when you get to men as accomplished as this any separation must be based on some especially trivial grounding.

A modern comparison is not possible because, as aforesaid, the right quantity of footage is just not there for a fair shake.

 

just as a note: it's a little unfair to judge against pea for not fighting as many opponents as pep because (as many have noted) it's just not feasible in the modern era

just as we cannot assume whitaker would win every match if he fought as many as pep, we cannot assume whitaker would lose either. each man can only be judged by the ability he showed in the context or his era

 

Resume breakdown:

Sammy Angott = Felix Trinidad
Sandy Saddler = Julio Cesar Chavez
Manuel Ortiz = Azumah Nelson
Willie Joyce = Oscar De la Hoya (being generous to Whitaker here and saying he deserved the win)
Paddy Demarco = Julio Cesar Vasquez
Chalky Wright = Roger Mayweather
Ray Famechon = Jose Luis Ramirez
Humberto Sierra = Buddy McGirt
Sal Bartolo = ?
Jackie Graves = Freddie Pendleton
Phil Terranova = Greg Haugen
Jimmy McAlister = Harold Brazier
Charley Riley = Jorge Paez
Corky Gonzalez = Rafael Pineda
Eddie Compo = Diosbelys Hurtado

Bear in mind I haven't named a few marginal guys in Whitaker's resume like Jake Rodriguez, Alfredo Layne, Poli Diaz, Wilfredo Rivera, Anthony Jones, Juan Nazario, Louie Lomeli, Santos Cardona, Rafael Williams, Gary Jacobs etc, who were 'ok' fighters.

All in all, I don't see Pep's resume as being that much better than Whitaker's.

Sure he fought a lot more guys in the 'ok' bracket, but in terms of top wins I'd say they are fairly close.

Would love to see a counter argument

 

Ted, how do you know that if you watched 40 Willie Pep fights you wouldn't start seeing the 'same moves'.

I know one thing, I see more imagination and variety in Whitaker's fights than I have seen in Willie Pep's.

 

Pep...

 

Man its great for us to have guys like Burt and Ted here. Hats off to both of you true boxing scholars! I look forward to every post you two write.

Personally its like apples and oranges to me though, so different were the skills each used for their very different styles. Pep's offense was as much what his legs could do as his mitts while Pernell could stand in a concise square and not be touched while pinpoint landing his shots. Even past his prime Willy did things I've never seen anywhere else and though I worked hard at it I found they weren't going to be duplicated. Sweet Pea was at his best almost perfection.

 

Pep had twice the amount of Pernell Whitaker's total fights against ranked contenders. But Whitaker did pack a lot of quality in those relatively few fights.

 

SS, that's just the point with Pep.! There were NO" same moves ".He would improvise for the occasion, bewildering his opponent,and the fans,I might add!. He would be cornered by an opponent,trapped it would seem, but he would escape by orthodoz and unorthodox moves,not contemplated by his opponent, or probably Willie. Not for nothing hardened old-time boxing writers ,bestowed upon him the "Will of the Wisp" nickname.
Whitaker,moved from the waist up,and being a southpaw didn't hurt Pernell
either. The only man of the past that was compared to Pep was the great Australian Young Griffo in style. Young Griffo had a trick of standing on a handkerchief,whilst avoiding being hit. But Griffo liked his spirits too much...Cheers.