Who do you rank higher: Andre Ward or Joe Calzaghe

Once again: Roy was not capable of beating world class fighters at the time he fought Joe.

He was destroyed by Johnson in 2004, and then he had low level wins against Ajamu, Hanshaw and Tito.

After he lost to Joe, he had low level wins over Sheika and Lacy.

Everytime he stepped up to fight the likes of Bernard and Lebedev, he lost.

He couldn't beat Danny Green.

You can try and dress it up however you like, but in 2008, Roy was no longer able to beat top tier guys. If he was, Glen Johnson would never have won every round before knocking him out.

 

It's not a contradiction because I'm not saying that was Joe's best win or what merits the strength of his legacy. His consistency at the top, multiple world titles and lineal titles, domination of the 168 division and winning every career defining fight gives credence to his legacy. Not just a quality win against an aging ring legend.

In 2008, Mayweather was at the height of his career...he was at his physical peak and his skills were at an all time high. Not sure what your point is? Bottom line is the win over Jones for Joe was a quality win, a defining win and added to his overall legacy. It didn't make his legacy.

Comparing Floyd today vs Jones of 2008....there's obviously a stark contrast to where they were post their prime years of operating in the sport. But Mayweather isn't the same Mayweather he was from 2 years ago, 3 years ago or 5 years ago....Floyd said that himself.

Jones definitely got destroyed by Glenn, he also got destroyed by Tarver but of course that was after his best years as a p4p boxer. He still won some fights after those losses....he wasn't consistent in winning but that doesn't mean he wasn't capable of winning against top guys. His punch resistance since draining back down to LHW took a hit. Getting knocked out the way he did against Tarver probably contributed.

Joe wasn't a scavenger. He was a dominant world champion who retired undefeated with all of his faculties. Roy and Bhop called out Joe. If Joe is a scavenger.....all top fighters who have an extensive hall of fame career are scavengers. Because they all face faded older champions or former world championships.

 

Roy was a shell of his former greatness, not debating that. I'm just saying he was still a good win for Joe at that time. What happened after his loss to Calzaghe is irrelevant. His career before his loss to Joe is what matters when discussing what he meant for Joe's resume. And bottom line it was a quality win which added to Joe's legacy. Not that it made Joe an ATG for beating and dominating that version of Jones Jr....but his resume is better having that W recorded than not having it at all. His legacy was already established without that W.

 

JohnnyDrama99,

You're saying that even though Roy was shot, it was a quality win.

It wasn't.

The point is: Even when Floys was past prime, he was still an elite fighter.

Joe's win over Roy may have been a quality win to him personally, as well as to his fans, but it wasn't in the boxing world.

I agree with that. But Floyd could resume his career today and still be a top P4P fighter.

This is another contradiction Johnny.

Yes, he was destroyed by Tarver and Johnson in 2004. So then how the hell was he still capable of winning against the top guys 4 years later?

If he was still capable of beating the top guys, he wouldn't have got destroyed by those two fighters in the first place.

A fighter who gets destroyed by a B level Glen Johnson in 2004, is clearly not capable of beating top fighters. Then add another 4 years, and he was even further removed from his best days.

You're saying that although he couldn't beat top level guys in 2004, he could have done so in 2008. It just doesn't make sense. There's no logic to that way of thinking. It's just silly.

Look, if he'd have performed great against Johnson but had then been caught by a perfect shot similar to Graham-Jackson, then you'd have a point. But he didn't. He lost every round to Glen Johnson. All 9 of them before getting knocked out. And after he'd knocked out Roy, Glen then lost to Clinton Woods in 1 of 3 very close fights that they had. Now if a guy can't even win a round against a guy like Johnson before going on and getting stopped, then he clearly isn't capable of beating top level guys. It really is as simple as that. Roy was no longer a top level at that point, and even less so 4 years later.

Yes he was a scavenger.

In 1999, he said he wasn't chasing Roy Jones as he didn't want tough fights.

In 2001, he then claimed he wanted to fight Roy, yet he wanted Roy to drop weight and to fly to the U.K. to fight for his lightly regarded WBO belt. It was all complete BS to kid to the fans and the media. There was no way on earth the P4P King was going to drop back to a weight he'd left 6 years earlier, to fight for a belt that nobody respected, against a guy who at the time was relatively unknown. Impossible. But it was designed so Roy could give a price, which then gave Joe the opportunity to tell everyone that he'd tried to make the fight. It was a joke. Embarrassing. Anybody else who was serious, would have gone to the U.S. and moved up in weight, like what Hatton did when he fought Floyd. Could you imagine Hatton with a mic in his hand at the M.E.N. Arena, calling for Floyd to drop weight and to fly over to Manchester to contest his WBU belt? Cringeworthy. Joe was all mouth, no action. He wouldn't even move up to LHW when he knew Ottke wouldn't unify, and there was nothing else on the horizon at the time.

Fast forward to 2003, and he said he thought he could give Roy a great fight, but he'd need the "Crown Jewels" due to the element of risk involved. This was said when he was fighting for purses of around £700,000. Again, he never moved up to LHW. Instead, he starved himself in order to continue racking up defences of his WBO belt.

In 2007, he said that Roy was shot, he had been since 2004, and a fight against him would now be pointless.

Early in 2008, he conducted a live interview for Setanta Sports, just prior to his fight with Bernard. The interviewer mentioned the prospect of fighting Roy afterwards, and when they suggested that Roy was past his best, Joe laughed and agreed that he was. They then asked him if he would be disappointed if his last fight was to be against Roy. His answer was: "Yes!"

Two months after he'd beaten Bernard, he then personally contacted Roy via text to try and set up a fight.

Don't try and tell me that he wasn't a scavenger.

He wanted nothing to do with Roy in the late 90's-early 00's, and he had zero interest in trying to build up a potential fight by either moving up to LHW to impress or move up the rankings, or to showcase himself to a live U.S. aidience. But when he saw that Roy offered no threat, he was straight on his phone, despite what he'd wrote in his autobiography just a year earlier.

Those are the very actions of a scavenger.

Circling in the sky, waiting until something dies, before swooping down and feasting on whatever's left.

Pathetic.

 

why are you saying "theres no need to". You are defending him.

Joe IS CONTRADICTING YOUR DEFENCE.

He is against your argument. Thats the only reason why there is no need to defend him, because he says your defence is FAIL.

 

We're just going around in circles.

A quality win how?

It wasn't a quality win.

Again, Joe said himself that Roy had been shot since 2004, and a fight would be pointless.

Again, Roy couldn't beat Johnson 4 years earlier.

It wasn't a quality win.

It was a cherry pick to try and end his career with a named fighter on his resume.

 

Judging by the statistics and numbers, it's not even close.

21 title defenses vs. 6 title defenses
Unified WBA/WBO/WBC/IBF vs. unified WBA/WBC
46-0 vs. 32-0

Clearly it's Calzaghe here by quite a margin. Plus he fought on opponent's territory.

Now if we compare resumes, it's a lot closer. Ward has victories over Kovalev, Kessler, Froch, Abraham, Dawson. Calzaghe has Kessler, Hopkins, Lacy, Eubank, Roy Jones.

If we take everything into account, that being:
* Statistics
* Resume
* Longevity
* Fighting abroad

I would say that Joe Calzaghe is clearly above Ward.

 

The main things to focus on should be:

Their resumes - who they beat and when, and the manner of their victories etc.

Their ability.

Their accomplishments.


Fighting abroad doesn't come into it.

Both were great fighters, but Joe played it safe, where he was more than content to rack up 21 defences of his lightly regarded WBO belt. Whereas Andre challenged himself more by moving up and fighting Kovalev. Joe would never have taken a fight like that.

Joe obviously has the numbers on his side, but then so does Ottke, and I wouldn't put Ottke above Andre.

I wouldn't say that Joe was clearly ahead.

 

Well, that's your opinion.

I would say that Calzaghe had many things stacked against him when he moved up and fought Hopkins in USA.

There's a funny thing that I ran upon just recently. The judge that had scored Calzaghe-Hopkins for Hopkins is actually non other than Adalaide Byrd.

 

Relax. You are all riled up and heated. It's not that serious. I'm not defending Joe. His legacy and his accomplishments stand on their own merit as I said before. Joe's a grown man and has his own mind, but just like the few who thought Canelo won last Saturday, that doesn't make them right. Joe never said to me or your my defense is "fail". Stop reaching

 

I already gave you the reasons the win was quality. I think you can review my previous posts if you are really unable to recall. If the fight between Joe and Jones was pointless the fight, the fight wouldn't have happened. The odds for the fight were in favor of Joe, 1/3....that says it all. And it was Jones who called out Joe. I'm not sure if Jones thought it was a cherry pick? But surely he knew that his chances of beating Calzaghe weren't in his favor as the odds suggested. It was definitely a quality win. Not that it was the highlight of his career, but it was noteworthy and memorable

 

You're missing one thing out here mate. Calzaghe was pretty much done by the time he fought Roy IMO. He was getting on and had a style that was never going to age well to go with his brittle hands.

Yeah he did cherry pick a shot RJJ but let's not act like it was a prime Calzaghe doing this.

 

Zaggers was truly world class

 

Both are still undefeated, both are still around...this can be settled in the ring

 

Ward would've knocked Calzage out.