Who do you rank higher: Andre Ward or Joe Calzaghe

JohnnyDrama99,


Johnny, you're just being argumentative.

It wasn't a quality win. It was just a win.

Roy doesn't possess a quality win over McCallum.

Amir Khan doesn't have a quality win over MAB.


Once again, your post is one big contradiction.

You admit that Roy was a shell of his former self and that he could no longer pull the trigger. You also acknowledge that Joe said that he was shot. But then you say that it was still a quality win because of how Joe dominated. No, it wasn't. It wasn't a quality win, based on the very things that you have noted.

It's just silly.

You're saying: "I know he was shot, but it was still a quality win"

No. Because he only won due to the fact that he was shot.

Like football/soccer, boxing has many different levels.

Yes, Roy was still winning fights. But against who? A 172 pound Tito who hadn't fought for 3 years?

Roy was completely shot as an elite fighter.

He didn't have any success at the top level. He couldn't beat Glen Johnson 4 years earlier.

Yes, he continued his career after Joe. And if you take a look, you'll see a familiar pattern. He lost everytime he stepped up a level. That happened from the first Tarver fight.

After he beat Tarver in 2003, he then lost the rematch. Then 3 months later, he lost to Johnson. He then had over a year out of the ring, before losing to Tarver again. He then had 3 wins over B/C level fighters. He then lost to Joe. He then had another 2 wins over B/C level fighters. He then lost to Green. He then lost to Hopkins and Lebedev, before again gaining wins over C/D class fighters.

It's very simple: He was still capable of beating the lower level guys, but he couldn't beat the top level ones.

In 2008, Joe and Roy were on different levels.

If Roy had fought Joe anywhere near his best, there's not a bookie in the world who'd have made Joe the favourite.

Of course he didn't see Joe as a cherry pick. It was Joe who saw Roy as a cherry pick, as evidenced by his actions.

Beating that version of Roy after what he'd said, actually hurts his legacy more than what it enhances it.

You're talking nonsense.

Of course people are going to discredit the win.

How can you just ignore his comments?

Yes, lots of fighters face faded legends. But not after they've said the following:


"Roy is no longer a great fighter. A fight against him would now be pointless"

"I've no interest in Tarver. He's done nothing apart from beat a shot Jones, and Johnson did the same"

This content is protected

(Go to the 6 min mark)


After making those types of comments, no fighter deserves credit, no matter how they perform on the night.

It doesn't matter how Joe won. It doesn't matter that he dominated. It was all irrelevant due to the above.

He doesn't deserve an ounce of credit.

 

Course, kova would have ripped joes head clean off and stuck it with a stickyout tongue expression on a pig iron in the corner, drenching in blood the welsh fans watching including and mini-joe Nathan Clev and Mrs Tranni Calzaghe.

Which wouldnt stop cardiff ref terry o connor still trying to carry headless joe back to his corner in that way he does with welsh fighters who get destoryed easily.

 

joe says it quite clearly here, he said roy was not worth facing.
and plus joe was once again namedropping two good prime guys, possible elites and once again facing neither of them. Joe made a career of pulling that trick on his fans.

 

Not only if as you say he admits Roy was a shell so does Joe in
No ordinary Joe which dropped iirc before the fight

 

An obsession?

We're discussing the careers of Joe and Andre.

There is no failed answer.

Andre fought Brand as a tune up before moving up to LHW and fighting Sergey Kovalev. Whereas Joe was content to face guys of that calibre on a regular basis, even when in his own words: "There was nothing else on the horizon"

In 2003-2004, Joe knew he couldn't fight Ottke. Yes, that wasn't his fault. He then told the media that he was still looking for a career defining fight. Yes, he tried to get Hopkins. Again, not his fault. He then said that he'd done all he could at SMW, and that he knew that he had to move up. He said that although he'd beaten good fighters, he'd never beaten a great one. He then said if his situation hadn't changed within 6 months, then he'd give serious thought to fighting Dariusz M. But in 6 months time when his situation hadn't changed, he still didn't move up. From the time Ottke made it clear he wouldn't fight him, to the time Lacy and Kessler had made waves, Joe fought the following guys: Mitchell, Mkrtchyan, Salem and Veit.

Now do you get it?

Andre used Brand to get sharp for Kovakev.

Joe plodded along fighting guys like Mkrtchyan and Salem, with nothing on the horizon.

Without being disrespectful, Brand, Mkrtchyan and Salem weren't great fighters. They were low level fighters. But you simply have to assess the circumstances involved. I'm not giving Andre a pass because I love him and I hate Joe. I'm giving Andre a pass, because Brand was used as a stepping stone, whereas Mkrtchyan and Salem were just average title defences for Joe. If you don't understand that, then I can't help you.

 

I think the majority of fans did score if for Joe. But there were still a lot of people who thought that Bernard had won.

Byrd scoring the fight for Bernard, wasn't as bad as her scoring the GG-Canelo fight in favour of Canelo.

 

Bernard didn't take any punishment.

Joe concentrated more on volume than accuracy.

Joe was by far the busier fighter, but Bernard landed the cleaner shots, even if they weren't as frequent.

Lots of Joe's shots were "cuffs" which were ineffective.

 

I suggest you rewatch the video.


Yet again, two things are apparent:

1. When Andre supposedly lands his low blows, you can't see exactly where they land. And that's because from the angle that's featured in the video, you can only see looking towards the back of Kovalev. Which obviously means that it's absolutely pointless.

2. Everytime that Andre hit Kovalev with a clean body shot, from a clear angle where you could actually see the shot land, it was conveniently ignored.


The red "Krusher" logo was situated on the white band of Sergey's shorts. That area was not low. Now go and have a look how many times Andre tagged that logo. He tagged it numerous times, as per Week's pre-fight instructions.

If you think that red logo was below the belt, then you need to take an anatomy class, before going on and learning the rules of boxing.

What's hilarious, is that if it was vice versa, you'd all be on here celebrating the win and vilifying Andre and his fans.

 

Here's a special treat for you.

Go and get some tissues and the ****:

This content is protected

 

Reid was offered an immediate rematch but turned it down because he didn't think it was enough money: http://www.secondsout.com/archive/anthony-evans/robin-reid-fuelled-by-emotion

After rejecting what he says was a "pathetic" purse for a rematch against Calzaghe ("Pride allowed me to take rubbish money for the first fight because I knew I'd win, and pride stopped me taking the second fight for just £20,000 more," he said) Reid didn't fight for over a year and when he did return he was beaten by Silvio Branco in a dismal 12 rounder on a Mike Tyson undercard.​

Ried never recieved another offer and never got himself into a position to force a rematch on his terms - if he hadn't been robbed against Ottke he would have been in such a position, but given that he had rejected the potential to fight a unification bout with Calzaghe when he held the WBC belt there's no guarentee that his "pride" wouldn't have gotten in the way again.

 

Yes, Rodriguez was initially planned as a tune up. When he fought him, he obviously couldn't have foreseen that he'd have remained inactive for a prolonged period afterwards. That wasn't his intention at the time.

Smith was also a tune up, again due to inactivity.

Barrera was also a tune up.

Fighting those guys back to back wasn't great. But he gets a pass due to the circumstances. His career was stop-start due to injuries and contractual disputes. I would only have criticised him if he'd have fought them all within the same year or so, because he was looking for an easy ride without wanting to challenge himself. But that's not what happened.

 

That video counts low blows which you can't actually see, whilst also ignoring the crystal clear shots which you can see.

If you tried to use this type of evidence in a court of law, it would be ripped apart and ridiculed.

 

"Mrs Tranni Calzaghe"

That made me laugh out loud.

 

Yes, the 2 quotes that I posted before the video, were excerpts from his 2007 autobiography.

 

It may have been his intention to fight Rodriguez as a tune up for something better, and that surely must be recognized, but in reality it turned out to be the only fight he had in almost a three year period for one reason or another, so I dont think it can really be classed as a tune up when we look back at his career.

I'm not sure there's much legitimate criticism to be had of him fighting Rodriguez in the first place given his intention was just to use Rodriguez to get back in fighting shape after over a year off, but the failure to have another fight for over 19 months after that while he was more interested in quarrelling with his own promoter is a bit of a mark against him