Who do you rank higher chavez or monzón in a pfp latin list?

Sadly I was always a little bit lazy when it came to JCC, I've mainly only watched his biggest fights, most of which he lost, so I have to back Monzon on what I know and have seen. Its a pretty uneducated opinion, but I think if you shrunk Monzon down to JCC's size I think the tools and skill set of Monzon trump's Chavez. My two cents for what they're worth, clearly not a great deal as I'll have to check out some of Chavez's earlier work before I make proper judgement, but if someone wants to convince me otherwise I'm all ears.

If we base the term P4P on who achieved more over the weight classes they fought in then Chavez has to take it based on what he achieved in multiple weight classes.

 

Reading isn't your strong suit. You need one or the other as I specified in my post. You can either move up and prove your metal against bigger foes, OR if you only fought in one division, you'd need wins over bigger stronger foes (which would show your p4p merit). Monzon doesn't qualify for part no. 1, and part 2 wasn't much better. Against the best guys he fought (and frankly most guys), he was the one who enjoyed the physically advantages. This is in stark contrast to Ali, who only fought in one division but beat good fighters who were bigger than him. Fighters like Foreman, Norton, Liston, Chuvalo, Oscar. Even Lyle imo was the bigger guy because Ali was over weight for that fight and still looked like the smaller guy. Point being, which bigger good fighters did Monzon beat to give him any kind of p4p merit?

 

And I'm already rethinking my view on this one lol. I still think take size and weight out of the equation Monzon would still get the job done, although it would be hella close.

 

Monzon. Arguably the best middleweight ever. Hard to top that. The only MWs I see as possibly being better would be SRR and Hagler.

 

Now we have a comprehension failure it seems. Why do you keep talking about Monzon's reign and cleaning out a division? Was the question about who had the longer reign or who dominated a division more? I thought the question was about p4p status, which has little to do with how long somebody reigned for. Then you talk about rematches... what in the hell? What does Ali not giving people a rematch have to do with anything? You're literally all over the place here, and making little sense. Then you go on to name fighters I never listed as bigger, and for the life of me I can't figure out why. Foreman was bigger Ali, and clearly so. Which bigger fighter did Monzon beat that was anywhere near as good as Foreman? Ali was not as big as Lyle. He weighted more than he ever had in any previous fight against Lyle and still looked like the smaller guy. He had Lyle by 2 pounds, but he was around 12 pounds over his typical fighting weight. Ali was taller than Liston, but certainly not "bigger" than Liston. You mention Wepner and Bugner, though not that good, they were bigger. I'm curious though, what makes you believe Ali was "bigger" than Norton? Because he was taller? How were their reaches? Ali certainly wasn't stronger than Norton nor bullying him. Which again is the point, he wasn't able to out physical Norton, because he wasn't "bigger" really. Monzon on the other hand, against the best he fought, was the bigger guy.

 

You have a gift for detailed responses. Anyone serious ?

 

Chavez defeated twelve world champions over four weight divisions. Monzon , no doubt a great fighter, presided over a average at best middleweight division. His biggest wins were over a playboy, a blown up old welterweight, an old blown up lightweight turned welterweight and a very good and tough Briscoe. There is really no comparison when you base it on fact.

 

Be serious please.
Napoles was a great Welterweight. He wasn't a little small at 147 but still a great champion. Emile Griffith also a blown up Welter though he did move up effectively enough but not at his peak weight. Names are fine but look at when they fought.

Chavez beat Roger Maywearhe 2x @130 and 140. He destroyed Edwin Rosario @135 in dominant fashion. Also beat Meldrick Taylor who was prime and undefeated @140. Hector Camacho was another good win in which JCC dominated.

Anyone pointing to Chavez's fights with DelaHoya doesn't know what their talking about. Julio's legacy was secure by that time. Those fights just padded DelaHoya bank account. Oscar DelaHoya a great fighter? LOL thanks for the laughs.

Monzon was a great fighter they took different routes to the same place. Chavez has the edge on him

 

I thought Chavez was at his best at 135, good at 140, not so much at welter. It's a strange comparison with Monzon who fought in one division, I like Carlos in his prime a lot

 

He was good no doubt but I'd take Aaron Pryor over Chavez at 140, Pryors stlye would give Chavez a fit losing a UD.

 

H2H v achievement - seems to be the perennial question about how to rank fighters on this forum. I always use achievement as the measure but it is tight between Pryor and Chavez for the no. 1 spot at 140 even by that measurement.

Chavez v Pryor H2H? Yeah, I'd probably favour Pryor.

 

You are right about achievement as a good measure, the thing I believe is that in whatever weight division you choose, no one fighter will ever beat the rest. There's always someone who'll get you, even the great Sugar Ray Robinson

 

I have Monzon and Chavez at numbers 23 and 25 on my P4P list, separated by Arguello. So, very close.
If I threw together a P4P Latin American list, I guess it would look something like this:
1. Duran
2. Jofre
3. Monzon
4. Arguello
5. Chavez
6. Sanchez