WHO do you rank higher, liston or schmeling in legacy?

And Liston's four defeats consists of two losses to the greatest heavyweight of all time, a decision when he was only in his 8th pro fight which incidentally was avenged and another loss when he was 37 years of age to a contender. Schmeling was beaten in one round by gypsy daniels while being more or less prime.

How so? unless you're talking about what he did at light heavyweight or maybe you're assuming that he'd beat those men under different circumstances, which doesn't change the reality that he lost those fights.

That last one BEAT Schmeling and didn't lose to him.. Mickey Walker weighed in as a light heavyweight and was on the ass end of his career.. And Machen and Folley had better resumes than you give them credit for.. I think Liston had more depth than Schmeling and fewer defeats that were equally if not more so justifiable.

It does to some extent. But weather he got his ass kicked legitimately or chose to throw those fights in the tank, he was still in the ring with what many consider to be the greatest heavyweight of all time, which as far as having a couple of losses, isn't a bad person to acquire them from..

 

Well he must have got lost then, because WW 2 only lasted 6 years.

 

I'm not disparaging Cleveland Williams or Machen just realizing that guys like Sharkey, Uzcudun had better resumes. Walker was 5-1-1 at heavy with the draw disputed when he faced Schmeling.

Bottom line again Schmeling has the best win by a lot. He also has more hall of fame scalps than Liston. That is undeniable. Ali is considered by some to be the bb best Heavyweight ever and so is Joe Louis. Scmeling just happened to beat him while Liston twice quit.

 

Ali nearly gets knocked out by Cooper, but 8 months later, he's the greatest of all time?

I rate Ali #1 at heavyweight, but let's be frank- that argument comes off as a copout for Sonny. To play that card is to let him off the hook for his own lack of preparation and overlooking his opponent, both of which should affect his legacy.

The second fight was a farce.

 

In legacy, after some retrospect, I say Schmeling, as he has a better list of fighters who were regarded as greats in his era.
Head to head, Sonny, by murder.

 

Their really is no comparison in this.

 

People tend to forget too that Max's title reign was shortened by the rip off job in NY to Sharkey. Also Braddock blatantly ducked Max's rightful place to fight and regain the title, preventing him from becoming the first two time champion in history.
As it stands wins over Louis, Sharkey, Stribling, Walker, Neusel, Uzcudun, Hamas all at the top of their game or close to it is quite impressive.

 

Schmeling's resume is more impressive.

 

It's also worth bearing in mind that while Schmeling has the better wins, he also has more blips on his record. Losses to Baer, Daniels, Hamas, Gains, Sharkey etc, plus a few draws with various fighters. Liston has just Marshall and Ali, plus Martin when he was almost 40. Liston did also pretty much clean out his division in dominant fashion, something Schmeling never did. Schmeling's all round career does trump Liston's, and he has the best win, though I'd pick Sonny head to head.

 

Agree on all accounts which is why I rate Liston higher. The only thing I'll say in Schmeling's defense is that his loss to Sharkey was deemed as one of the worst robberies in heavyweight boxing history. But other than that, the rest is valid. Now if Jim Braddock had given Max a title shot the way he was supposed to and assuming Schmeling had actually won it, THEN he'd probably have a claim to being the higher ranked man.

 

He already has a claim of being the higher ranked man. If you agree on all counts of the previous comment your admitting that Max has the better all around resume AND the best single win. Right there is a valid argument for him. Doesn't mean you have to pick him but a solid case can be made for him.

 

I don't agree that he has the better all around resume and for reasons that I've already stated. I DO agree that he has the better single win, but if we're honest, the value of that win rose in stock largely due to what Louis later became. At the time he was viewed as a very talented contender and one who had only been on the scene for less than two years. Floyd Patterson was an olympic gold medalist, youngest heavyweight champ ever, a two time title holder and still in his prime at age 28. Obviously he ranks no where near Joe Louis on an all time level, but given the context of the circumstances, Liston's best win isn't so far beneath Schmelings. You look at Sonny's destructive performances against highly ranked natural heavyweights in their primes and it makes Schmeling's victories over past prime former middles and light heavys look pedestrian. And needless to say Liston had far fewer defeats, with two of them coming to Muhammad Ali and another coming when he was older than Jesus Christ. If Max were to trade places with Liston and it were Sonny who got stopped in one round by Gypsy Daniels would you not be all over that flies on a cow pie? Because frankly I think it likely that you might be..

 

Oh you don't agree? I thought you had wrote that you agree with everything in the previous post. However you wish to spin it, Schmelings win over Louis is far greater than Liston's over Patterson's. Patterson was already blown away by Ingo and was never Louis's league to begin with. No contest. Louis, Sharkey, Stribling, Walker, Neusel, Uzcudun. Trump Patterson, Williams, Folley, Machen and Valdez to me. But each his own. Yes Schmeling's collection of victims are naturally smaller men but I factor that in when doing head to head not legacy. Yes the Gipsy Daniels loss is the real clunker on Max's record not disputing that. Because of that loss I can't place Max higher. I'll take the guy that kept trying to get up against Louis than the guy who rolled on the mat like a dog against Ali.

 

I agree with some of your points.. But not the opinion in its entirety.

Common.. If Louis had faded into obscurity after losing to Schmeling and joined the murderer's row alongside Elmer Ray, Turkey Thompson, Lee Q Murray, etc. would we really be having this argument? Joe Louis improved drastically after losing to Schmeling and the rematch followed by his lengthy title reign proves it.. The victory holds a higher stock value because of the eventuality of the matter with Louis going on to achieve greatness.. He was a contender when he fought Schmeling and one who was a work in progress... Patterson was a reigning world champion in his prime... Let's not confuse things by trying to claim that I am rating Patterson higher than Louis. Only putting things into context. Incidentally I still rate Schmeling's win over Louis higher than Liston's win over Floyd. I just don't think that its by as wide of a margin as you're making it and for reasons that should be obvious at this point

We're just going to have to agree to disagree then.

 

That's fine to disagree.

However I have say Louis didn't fade into obscurity. He had defeated two ex champions prior to the match (looked spectacular in doing so) and was viewed as a machine both before and after the Schmeling fight. Retiring at 60-1. You can't change that because then it's not Louis. Liston's wins were impressive and I'm a fan of his, he was a destroyer I just like the wins on Max's ledger a little more. I may be in the minority but I think Max gets vastly underrated today.